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THE SPECIAL MEETING OF THE NEWBURG HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION MONDAY, JUNE 1ST, 2:00 PM CALL TO ORDER.AND CURRENTLY ABSENT ARE MOLLY BALES.
[3. Review of updates to the Design Principles and Standards. ]
IS TO REVIEW THE UPDATES TO THE DESIGN PRINCIPLES AND STANDARDS, THE DRAFT THAT WAS DISTRIBUTED TO YOU LAST WEEK.AND WE'LL JUST GO THROUGH CHAPTER BY CHAPTER, BUT NOT LITERALLY, BUT IN GENERAL TOPICS.
SO IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING THAT ISN'T COVERED, PLEASE BRING IT UP.
IF THERE'S ANYTHING ELSE THAT AS WE GET THROUGH IT, WE'RE MISSING, PLEASE BRING THAT UP.
AND AGAIN, WHAT WE'LL COME UP WITH IS A DRAFT THAT WOULD BE DISTRIBUTED TO THE PUBLIC, BUT EVEN THERE, IT IS STILL A DRAFT, SO NOTHING IS IN CONCRETE EVEN AFTER TODAY.
SO WITH THAT, UH, ANY COMMENTS BY ANYONE BEFORE WE START, OR QUESTIONS? SO YOUR, YOUR POINT TODAY IS TO TRY TO HIT SOME OF THE BIG TICKET ITEMS, NOT SO MUCH THE WORDSMITHING, NOT SO MUCH THE, THE TENSION STRUCTURE, WHATEVER THE LAYOUT.
IT'S REALLY MORE TO TALK ABOUT THOSE SIGNIFICANT CHANGES TO, TO THE CURRENT STANDARDS.
AND PARTICULARLY NOTEWORTHY IS THAT THE FORMAT IS STILL WHAT IT WAS IN THE CURRENT GUIDELINES, BUT OUR INTENT IS TO TURN THAT OVER TO A GROUP THROUGH, UH, DEVELOPMENT SERVICES THAT WILL ADD MORE PICTURES, MAKE IT MORE PRESENT PRESENTABLE, AND TRY TO RE REFORMAT IN A WAY THAT'S EASIER TO USE, PERHAPS.
SO, AND PERHAPS MAKE IT MORE OF AN ELECTRONIC DOCUMENT AS OPPOSED TO A, TO A WRITTEN RIGHT.
YOU CAN DO WRITTEN, BUT HAVE ALL THE LINKS BUILT IN.
SO DESPITE THE FACT THAT IT CURRENTLY LOOKS PRETTY MUCH LIKE THE OLD ONE, THE WORDING IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.
IN MANY CASES, THINGS ARE CHANGED.
AND THEN FINALLY, UH, WE WILL TAKE THAT DOCUMENT THAT MAKES IT THROUGH THE PUBLIC AS WELL AS THE ALDERMAN'S APPROVAL.
AND THEN HAD IT TURNED INTO A, A DIFFERENT LOOKING DOCUMENT AND, WHICH I THINK IS A GOOD POINT.
THERE'S NO POINT IN PUTTING IT IN THE RIGHT FORMAT NOW IF WE'RE STILL GONNA BE TALKING ABOUT CONTENT.
SO WITH THAT, WERE THERE ANY COMMENTS ON, ON THE FIRST CHAPTER, UM, THE THINGS THAT I HAVE NOTED OR HEARINGS, AND YOU HAVE A LIST HERE IN FRONT OF YOU.
HEARINGS OF DESIGN REVIEW MEETINGS HAVE BEEN REFOCUSED ON APPLICANT PRESENTATION AND THE SPECIFIC STANDARDS INVOLVED WHILE IDENTIFYING REVIEW AND REVIEWING ANY EXCEPTIONS TO THE STANDARDS IN THE PROPOSAL.
THAT'S SOMETHING WE TRIED FIRST LAST MONTH.
THE INITIAL, UH, RESPONSE FROM THE COMMISSIONERS WAS GOOD.
UH, AS COMMISSIONER WIKA POINTED OUT, THERE MAY BE SOME CHANGES IN THE TONE OF THE TEXT, WHETHER IT'S FIRST PERSON, SECOND PERSON, THIRD PERSON.
IT SEEMS LIKE MOST OF IT'S IN THIRD PERSON, BUT THAT ONE SECTION ABOUT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY AS A PROPERTY OWNER, I DON'T THINK IT REALLY FITS BECAUSE THERE'S MORE THAN PROPERTY OWNERS WHO READ THIS AND YEAH.
BUT THERE'S ONLY PROPERTY OWNERS THAT ARE RESPONSIBLE, SO THAT TRUE.
BUT IF YOU COULD SAY PROPERTY OWNER'S RESPONSIBILITY YEAH.
BUT, BUT UNLESS SOMEONE OBJECTS, MY PREFERENCE IS, MY PREFERENCE IS THAT COMMISSIONER THOMPSON, WHO HAS WORKED ON THIS PREVIOUS GUIDELINES AND CURRENT, HE'LL DETERMINE WHAT HE CHOOSES TO CHANGE, AND THEN WE'LL SEE THAT DRUG.
UM, 1.7, ALLOWING OTHERS TO SPEAK AT C OE HEARING NOT.
WE'RE GONNA, I'M GONNA, I'D LIKE TO MOVE THAT TO THE END, BECAUSE THAT'S REALLY A LEGAL QUESTION MORE THAN OURS.
AND SO WE HAD SOME CONFLICTING READINGS FROM THE SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT, SO THAT'D BE BEST FOR SOMETHING THAT, UH, JAMIE ULTIMATELY REMARKS ON.
AND WE HAVE NOW COMMISSIONER THOMPSON AND COMMISSIONER BALES DRIVING.
NOW, I DO WANNA THANK MR. THOMPSON FOR ALL THE WORK HE PUT INTO DRAFTING THIS AND REFORMATTING AND ALL THE WORK THAT'S INVOLVED TO DO THAT.
NEXT THING I WANT TO TALK ABOUT.
SO, SO, SO, SO GOING BACK TO WHAT YOU BROUGHT UP FIRST, WHICH WAS THAT CONCEPT OF THE APPLICANT PRESENTATION AND THE, THE
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NOTING OF ANY EXCEPTIONS OR DIFFERENCES.UM, I, I THINK THAT WORKED OUT PRETTY WELL, BUT WE DIDN'T HAVE A VERY EXTENSIVE APPLICATION PROCESS.
SO I THINK TIME WILL TELL IF, IF, IF, IF THAT WORKS, THE CONCEPT'S COOL.
I JUST DON'T KNOW IF IT'S, WELL, WE NEED TO ALSO MAKE SURE THAT IF SOMEONE IS WATCHING THE TELEVISION ALONE, THEY HAVE SOME FIELD FOR WHAT WE DID AND NOT JUST SAY WE SAW THE DESIGN REVIEW AND LOOKS GOOD TO US.
SO, UM, NEXT POINT IS ON AREAS VISUAL CONCERN, 1.6.
IN, IN ONE, I'VE ALWAYS FELT THAT THE PICTURES ARE MUCH BETTER THAN THE DESCRIPTION.
AND SO MY QUESTION IS, IS IT OKAY AS IT IS, OR THERE WAS A SUGGESTION, SHOULD WE USE PUBLIC WAYS INSTEAD OF STREET VIEW? SHOULD WE ADD SOMETHING THAT ADDRESSES LOTS? THAT FRONT ON TWO STREETS? THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S RECENTLY COME UP.
I KNOW THERE'S ONE IN THE PAST WHERE IT HASN'T BEEN AN ISSUE OR A TRIANGLE, BUT THERE WAS ONE RECENTLY THAT HAS BEEN AN ISSUE.
I DON'T KNOW OF AN EASY WAY TO ADDRESS SOMEONE'S PROPERTY AND MAKE IT A RULE WITH TWO STREET FRONTAGES.
WELL, I THINK IT WOULD PROBABLY BE SIMILAR TO A CORNER LOT.
IT'S JUST THAT YOU WOULD NOT HAVE ANY TERTIARY IN YOUR LOT.
I LIKE THE IDEA OF PUBLIC WAY, YOU KNOW, AND WHAT I WOULD, WHAT I WOULD USE AS DEMONSTRATION OF THAT IS THE PARKING LOTS DOWNTOWN, THE PARKING LOTS THAT HAVE PUBLIC, UH, THROUGH THROUGHWAY, THROUGH FARES OR THOROUGH FARES WHERE YOU WALK THROUGH, DRIVE THROUGH.
I THINK THAT'S A GOOD IDEA TO THINK ABOUT THAT MORE HOLISTICALLY.
EVEN THE WAY BETWEEN MIDDLE AND, AND CRAVING ALL THE STORES AND HOW YOU GET FROM ONE TO THE NEXT.
SO AS, AS A, AS A RIGHT, RIGHT OF WAY OR PUBLIC, UM, WOULD THAT BE PEDESTRIAN AS WELL AS VEHICULAR? IS THAT WHAT, WHAT YOU'RE THINKING? THAT'S MY THOUGHT.
OR ARE YOU JUST TALKING ABOUT I WOULD, I GUESS I WOULD THINK SO.
UM, AND I WOULD THINK SO BECAUSE IN AN ODD WAY THAT THE PEDESTRIAN USED THE BUILDING TO USE THE AREA BETTER THAN, THAN THE DRIVER OR, OR THE PASSENGER, YOU KNOW, AT 30 MILES AN HOUR, 15 MILES AN HOUR, THE PERSON THAT'S ABLE TO STOP ON.
NOT, I, I DON'T DISAGREE WITH THAT.
BUT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SOME OF THOSE PASSAGE WAYS DOWNTOWN, LIKE BEAR PLAZA FOR EXAMPLE.
YOU'VE GOT, YOU'VE GOT KIND OF A CANYON OF, OF BRICK WALLS.
IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU'RE, YOU REALLY WANT TO, TO HAVE, I GUESS THAT'S FOR THE BOARD TO DETERMINE, RIGHT? WHAT, WHAT, WHAT DO WE WANT, QUOTE UNQUOTE CONTROL OVER? WHAT DO WE WANT TO SAY OVER, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE IF, IF WE'RE GONNA ALLOW, IF WE'RE GONNA ALLOW SOMETHING ON, ON THE BACKSIDE IN A TERTIARY THAT YOU'RE NOT GONNA ALLOW IN A PRIMARY, HOW, WHERE'S THE DIFFERENTIATION THEN BETWEEN PUBLIC PRIVATE SPACE? YOU KNOW, HOW HOW DOES THAT, I'M TRYING TO WRAP MY HEAD AROUND IT, YOU KNOW.
UM, BUT THAT GOES BACK TO THE LOT.
IT GOES THE WHOLE WAY THROUGH.
YOU'VE GOT FRONTAGE ON AND CONSIDERABLY YOU COULD HAVE A FRONTAGE ON THREE ROADS, RIGHT? BUT, BUT WE'RE, WE'RE, IF YOU'RE NOT CAREFUL WITH THAT, YOU KNOW, AND YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE DIAGRAMS EVEN IN HERE, LET'S JUST CALL OUT ONE OF 'EM THAT'S GOT THE WINDOW OPENINGS WITH THE, WITH THE VERTICAL VERSUS HORIZONTAL WINDOW OPENINGS.
WHAT, WHAT'S TO STOP SOMEONE FROM DOING A REMODEL OR AN ADDITION ON THE BACK OF ONE OF THOSE, AND COMPLETELY CHANGING AND DOING SOMETHING THAT'S NOT TECHNICALLY IN LINE WITH THE OVERALL FABRIC OF THE AREA.
I, I DON'T KNOW THE RIGHT ANSWER.
AND, AND THEN YOU'RE ALSO GETTING INTO TELLING A, A PROPERTY OWNER WHAT THEY CAN AND CAN'T DO.
SO IT'S, IT IS A TOUCHY THING, BUT I, I GUESS I, I COULD SEE USING PUBLIC WAY, IF NOTHING ELSE, THAT GIVES US A LITTLE MORE PURVIEW AS TO HOW TO INTERPRET IT.
AND COULD YOU CONSIDER THE PUBLIC WAYS JUST IN, UH, GAS FABRIC AS OPPOSED TO THROUGHOUT THE CITY? I CAN, I CAN, I CAN SEE THAT ARGUMENT MAKES, THAT ACTUALLY MAKES MORE SENSE TO ME.
SO WHY WOULDN'T THAT IN ANY OF THE, OF, OF, WHY WOULDN'T THAT BE AN ISSUE IN WATERFRONT OR, OR ANYBODY ELSE TO HAVE THAT SAME WELL, PUBLIC RIGHTS AWAY IN DENSE FABRIC, YOU'RE NOT TYPICALLY TRYING TO SCREEN YOUR BACKYARD OR FENCE YOUR BACKYARD.
UM, ALTHOUGH THERE ARE PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO FENCE THE BACKYARD.
THERE ARE, I MEAN, IT'S ALREADY A LESSER PRIVATE SPACE WOULD BE ANOTHER ARGUMENT USING THERE.
WELL, I'M, I'M THINKING WE HAD JUST A BRIEF CONVERSATION A WHILE BACK ABOUT THE BACK OF SOME OF THOSE RESTAURANTS, AND WE WERE TALKING, REMEMBER WE WERE PUTTING A DOOR IN
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SOMEWHERE, AND THERE WAS SOME QUESTION ABOUT, WELL, IT'S NOT REALLY PUBLIC RIGHT AWAY, THE FRONT'S, THE, THE, THE PARKING LOT IN THE BACK.AND SO WE WERE A LITTLE BIT, YOU KNOW, NOT AS HARD BECAUSE IT WAS FACING, IT WAS A METAL DOOR, IT WAS A REFRIGERATION.
IF WE'RE SAYING PUBLIC RIGHTS AND YOU'RE IN THE TALKING PARKING LOT, THEN THAT WOULD COME INTO BLOOD.
I DON'T HAVE PROBLEM
UM, BEING AN ARCHITECT, I'VE DEALT WITH BOTH SIDES OF IT.
IT DOESN'T ALWAYS MAKE ANYONE HAPPY.
THERE ARE UTILITARIAN AREAS TO A BUILDING, BUT WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE? AND THAT'S, I DON'T HAVE THE ANSWER.
I'M JUST THROWING OUT A, IF YOU DO PUBLIC, DOES THAT GIVE YOU THE, THE OPPORTUNITY TO USE IT AS, AS APPROPRIATE? WELL, YOU ALWAYS HAVE THE QUESTION OF, IS IT CONSISTENT WITH THE SPECIAL FABRIC OF THE DISTRICT? MM-HMM
SO EACH, EACH SITUATION MIGHT BE UNIQUE.
UM, AND THAT'S WHAT YOU JUST DEALT WITH WAS A UNIQUE SITUATION WITH MULTIPLE PRIMARY ATCS.
SO, SO IS IS THE ANSWER IN THAT CASE, AND BY THE WAY, I, I, I THINK MOST EVERYBODY KNOWS ABOUT IT.
THERE'S, THERE'S A PROPERTY THAT HAS IT'S LONG AND, AND SKINNY, AND IT FRONTS ON ONE STREET IN THE FRONT, AND IT FRONTS ON ANOTHER STREET IN THE BACK.
AND SO THEY, THEY GOT A MINOR CO EIGHT TO PUT SIX FOOT FENCE AROUND THE TERTIARY AND THE SECONDARY AS IT ON THEIR, YOU KNOW, ON BEHIND, ON THEIR, ON THEIR PRIMARY STREET.
BUT THE BACK OF THE FENCE IS PRIMARY TO THE, THAT SECOND STREET.
AND, UH, WHAT STREET EDGERTON, I COULD GIVE YOU SOME CONTEXT.
FROM A LAND USE PERSPECTIVE, MY NEIGHBOR'S A BLISTER.
WHEN YOU HAVE DOUBLE FRONTAGE LIKE THAT, UH, THE FRONT IS STILL CONSIDERED THE FRONT.
AND WHAT YOU GUYS WOULD CONSIDER THE TERTIARY IS, IS STILL THE REAR.
SO ANYTHING THAT YOU'RE DOING IN THE REAR IS, IS NOT TREATED AS IF IT WERE THE FRONT.
THE ONLY THING ON LAND USE THAT CHANGES WITH THAT IS LIKE, YOU HAVE A, LET'S JUST SAY A 30 FOOT FRONT SETBACK IN YOUR REAR YARD FRONTS ON THE OTHER STREET.
YOU'D HAVE THE SAME SETBACK THERE.
UH, BUT YOU'RE NOT CONSTRAINED BY EVERYTHING ON THE ACTUAL FRONT OF THE PROPERTY.
SO IF YOU WANTED TO PUT A SHUT BACK, WHICH I HEAR, BUT YET WE DO THAT ON CORNER LOTS.
NOW WE, WE SAY THAT THE A A SIDE YARD FOR A CORNER LOT IS NOT A, IT'S NOT SECONDARY.
WE HAVE, WE HAVE DUAL PRIMARIES ON CORNER LOTS.
SO WHY WOULDN'T WE HAVE PRIME THREE PRIMARIES IF YOU, IF YOU WILL, ON THE END OF A BLOCK? NOT THAT THERE'S VERY MANY LOTS THAT, THAT ARE, THAT GO FROM STREET TO STREET.
WHAT IS A GOOD EXAMPLE? IT DEPENDS ON HOW, HOW DEEP YOU WANT TO GET INTO THIS.
BECAUSE IF YOU'RE EVER IN THE MORGAN'S AND SEEN THE BACK OF AIR IN THE BACK OF MVF ARCHITECTURE'S OFFICE, UH, THAT IS PRIVATE PARKING, HOWEVER, YOU ARE OFFERING THAT TO THE PUBLIC TO COME ONTO YOUR PROPERTY.
SO EVERYTHING WITHIN THAT REAR SECTION, IF YOU'RE GOING TO DO THIS, WOULD APPLY TO THOSE, THOSE RULES THAT YOU'RE ABOUT TO SET.
THERE'S NO DEFINITION I COULD FIND IN OUR ORDINANCES FOR PUBLIC WAY, FOR THE CITY'S COMMUNITY CODE.
THERE ARE CITIES THAT HAVE DEFINED PUBLIC WAY.
MAYBE THAT'S SOMETHING WE LOOK AT HOW THEY DEFINE OTHER CITIES IN OTHER CITIES AND SEE DOES IT FIT? BECAUSE IT, IT'S NOT EASY.
WELL, IN, IN, IN THAT, IN THAT PARKING AREA, THERE'S TWO, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, I BELIEVE THERE'S TWO DESIGNATED PUBLIC SLOTS THROUGH THERE, RIGHT? ISN'T THE ALLEY BETWEEN MORGAN'S AND, UH, PERRY'S, THAT IS, I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S CIVIL WAY, IT'S FEDERAL WAY MM-HMM
I WAS GONNA SAY INTERNATIONAL.
AND THEN ISN'T, ISN'T THE MIDDLE OF THE PARKING LOT AS IT GOES BETWEEN, UH, THE HARDWARE STORAGE MORTGAGES.
ISN'T THE CENTER OF THAT GOING ALL THE WAY THROUGH BEAR PLAZA? ISN'T THAT A PUBLICLY AS WELL TURN THERE? THAT'S NOT DESIGNATED.
SO THAT'S, BUT IT'S DIFFERENT THAN, IT'S CONSIDERED DIFFERENT THAN FEDERAL.
BUT IT'S CITY PROPERTY DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT'S NOT FEDERAL WAY IS OWNED BY NOBODY.
IT STILL COULD BE PUBLIC RIGHT AWAY.
PUBLIC STREETS ARE OWNED BY THE CITY AND THEY'RE STILL CONSIDERED PUBLIC IN A PARKING LOT.
BETWEEN THE TWO, THE RESTAURANT AND THE ADJACENT BUILDING.
WELL, LET'S SEE HOW WE, WE MIGHT DEFINE PUBLIC WAY AND THEN YEAH.
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I, I, I'LL, OKAY.WELL, YOU COULD SAY, NEVERMIND WHETHER IT'S STREET OR PUBLIC WAY, OR THE RIVER, YOU COULD JUST SAY WHERE IT CAN BE SEEN BY THE PUBLIC.
SIMILAR TO THE ISSUE WE HAD WITH DEFENSE, UH, RIGHT.
UH, I SUPPORT ADDING IN SOMETHING SOME WAY TO ACCOMMODATE A PUBLIC WAY AND DEFINING THAT.
WE HAVE ENOUGH LOCATIONS WHERE IT'S, WELL, ESPECIALLY IF WE'RE GONNA ALLOW MORE CONTEMPORARY MATERIALS AND, AND RELAXATION, IT, IT, IT, IT, AND WHAT I CAN SEE IS, I'M GONNA THROW OUT WHACK AS AN EXAMPLE, BUT IF SOMEBODY WANTED TO GO INTO THE TERTIARY RIGHT NOW AND DO SOMETHING LIKE A, UH, UH, JUST HAD IT ON THE TIP OF TIP OF MY TONGUE.
WHAT'S THE, MATT, HELP ME OUT.
WHAT'S THE METAL? THAT AWESOME METAL THAT THE CORTEN STEEL OH.
AND WANTED TO DO COR CORR 10 STEEL BACK THERE.
IT, IT RUSTS, IT, IT PROTECTS ITSELF BY RUSTING, IT LEAKS DOWN ONTO EVERYTHING.
YOU CAN HAVE A DISASTER IN OTHER PLACES BECAUSE SOMEBODY DECIDED TO DO THAT.
AND WE CAN'T NECESSARILY PREVENT THAT IN A TERTIARY THAT I'M AWARE OF.
SO I'M JUST THROWING OUT ONE WEIRD EXAMPLE.
SO I MEAN THAT WE GOTTA BE A LITTLE CAREFUL.
AND THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS I WOULD LOOK, BECAUSE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A, A STRUCTURE OF SOME TYPE OR JUST A HUNK OF METAL IN, IN THE BACKYARD.
WELL, NO, JUST BASICALLY A SIDE AS SIDE, YOU KNOW, SO WE MENTIONED MORGAN.
MORGAN WANTS TO GO OVER AND PUT A PANEL PANEL ON THAT TO SHADE A LITTLE MORE OF THEIR PATIO.
THEY COULD, I DON'T SEE A REASON WHY THEY TECHNICALLY COULDN'T.
IF THAT'S TER WELL, IT, UNLESS WE GO WITH THIS PUBLIC, RIGHT.
THAT GIVES US A LI AND AGAIN, I THINK IT NEEDS TO BE LEFT A LITTLE BIT LOOSE AND THAT WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO KIND OF INTERPRET THAT FOR WHAT REASONS.
AND WE NEED STATE, OBVIOUSLY WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF WHAT THE COMMISSION DOES.
BUT I THINK A LITTLE CONTROL OVER THAT COULD CLEAN THAT AREA UP SO IT JUST DOESN'T GET TO BE A MESS.
SOMETHING WE SAID THAT'S, BECAUSE WE, WE WOULD TYPICALLY SAY, WELL, METALS, MASONRY WOOD, OR, OKAY, PERHAPS THEY'RE NOT MM-HMM
SO PUBLIC WAYS THEN WOULD INCLUDE THE PROMENADE ALONG THE, UH, RIVERFRONT.
WHERE THE, WHERE THE BEHIND JOHN HARRELSON MM-HMM
I THINK UNION BOY SIDEWALK WALK DECK CAN'T DO A DECK IN THE PRIMARY A, B, C RIGHT DOWN TO GO HARBOR MM-HMM
SO LET'S SEE WHAT THE DEFINITION WOULD BE.
UH, REPLACEMENT IN KIND WAS SOMETHING ELSE.
WE TACKLED IN 1.6 TO REALLY HAVE IT FOCUS MORE ON THE STRUCTURE AND ON PERIPHERALS, LIKE THE AIR CONDITIONERS AND HANGING UNITS, ET CETERA, PLUMBING ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE BUILDING, ET CETERA.
WE DO ADDRESS IT SPECIFICALLY TO TALK ABOUT, UH, PIPING, ET CETERA.
AFFIXED TO THE BUILDING DOES NEED TO BE CONCEALED WITH PAINT.
BUT AS FAR AS AN AIR CONDITIONER, YOUR REPLACEMENT IS SIMPLY A REPLACEMENT AIR CONDITIONER.
UH, WHETHER IT'S SIX INCHES WAS ON WIDER, HIGHER.
AND, AND, AND THAT'S BEEN DEALING WITH THAT RECENTLY, WHICH I THINK HAS GOTTEN BETTER.
SO, AND, AND AS LONG AS IT'S SCREENED MM-HMM
OR BEHIND THE BUILDING OR BEHIND THE BUILDING.
SO I WOULD, I WOULD LIKE TO, UM, URGE THE TERM, UH, CHANGE TO EXACT REPLACEMENT IN KIND ON STRUCTURE ON STRUCTURE.
BECAUSE THE REQUIREMENTS ARE THAT IT BE EXACT.
SO WHEN YOU'RE CHANGING ON THE HVC UNIT, USUALLY YOU DON'T CHANGE OUT EXACT UNITS.
YOU UPGRADE TO A SMALL COMPACT UNIT OR SOMETHING.
SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE WORD EXACT MEANS.
SO I USUALLY GIVE A FEW INCHES OF LEEWAY.
SO, AND IF IT'S THE SAME KIND OF UNIT THEY'RE USUALLY DOING, BUT I WOULDN'T CALL THAT EXACT.
I MEAN, I THINK IF YOU SAY EXACT, THEN IT HAS TO BE A Z 29 OR Z 29 AND, AND THEY COME UPDATED A LOT OF THOSE UNITS TOO.
THEY'RE, I MEAN, TO ME, YOU CAN, YOU CAN SET THE STANDARD FOR DEVIATION FROM THAT.
SO IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE WHAT REPLACEMENT AND KIND IS, YOU COULD STATE PLUS OR MINUS FIVE OR 10% OF, OF THE DIMENSIONS.
UH, AND IT WOULD PROBABLY BE MY RECOMMENDATION THAT YOU CAN LUMP THINGS THAT REDUCE THE VISUAL IMPACT IN THERE IF YOU'RE GOING WITH SOMETHING SMALLER.
UM, UNLESS YOU WANT TO CREATE A STANDARD FOR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, THAT'S A SEPARATE THING.
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BUT I LIKE YOUR IDEA IF IT'S SMALL OR IT'S NOT AN INCH, IF IT'S BIGGER UP, UP TO SOME AMOUNT, YOU KNOW, IF IT, IF IT'S AN INCH AND A HALF LARGER, RIGHT.BUT, BUT IF IT'S HAS TO BE QUANTITATIVE FOR SURE, LIKE YOU'RE GONNA EITHER HAVE TO HAVE A PHYSICAL SIZE IN INCHES OR FEET OR, OR A PERCENTAGE OF THAT SIZE.
'CAUSE HE'S GOING TO NEED TO BE ABLE TO QUANTIFY THAT.
SO THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF REPLACEMENT AND KI CORRECT? YES.
SO IS A COMPRESSOR AN ARCHITECTURAL FEATURE? YEAH.
WELL, IT DOES A REPLACEMENT IN KIND, IT SAYS IT TWICE IN THE DEFINITION.
IS THAT NOT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT? THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT.
THAT'S WHAT I, THAT'S WHAT JIM JUST SAID.
THE STRUCTURE IS NOT, SO ARE YOU SAYING THAT A REPLACEMENT OF A MECHANICAL UNIT CANNOT BE REPLACEMENT AND KIND NO MATTER IF IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME OR NOT? WOULD IT BE UNDER UTILITIES? NO, I THINK, I THINK WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS WE NEED TO TAKE A LOOK AT THAT AND, AND PUT LANGUAGE IN THERE TO ADDRESS IT.
REPLACE, AND MAYBE THAT'S WHERE THE, UH, THE, THAT VARIABLE, THE GIVE A LITTLE BIT OF MORE FLEXIBILITY AS OPPOSED TO THE EXACT REPLICA OR THE EXACT MATERIALS OF A NORMAL ARCHITECTURAL RK.
WHY CAN'T A REPLACEMENT OF AN AIR CONDITIONER UNIT BE MAINTENANCE IN REPAIR? YOU HAVE THE OPTION TO DIRECT THAT, UM, AND SPECIFY THE THINGS SUCH AS HVACS AND HOT WATER HEATERS THAT ARE EXTERIOR TO BUILDINGS STUFF, STUFF LIKE THAT.
UH, UTILITY SERVICING THE BUILDING, YOU CAN SPECIFY THAT THAT'S NOT AN, THAT ARCHITECTURAL FEATURE AND IS HANDLED IN THAT FASHION.
UH, BUT IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SET THAT STANDARD IN THE ORDINANCE, THEN YOU HAVE TO FIGURE SOMETHING ELSE OUT.
BECAUSE RIGHT NOW, HVAC REPLACEMENTS ARE TREATED AS EITHER A REPLACEMENT IN KIND OR A MINOR SEAL ARRAY.
BUT YOU DO HAVE A POINT ABOUT IT BEING NORMAL MAINTENANCE REPAIR IF IT'S NOT AN ARCHITECTURAL FEATURE, BECAUSE THIS, THE DEFINITION THERE IS, UH, CONSTITUTES WORK THAT DOES NOT INVOLVE A CHANGE IN MATERIAL OR DESIGN OF A STRUCTURE'S EXTERIOR ARCHITECTURAL FEATURES OR LANDSCAPING THAT DOES NOT SIGNIFICANTLY CHANGE A PROPERTY'S APPEARANCE FROM THE STREET.
SO COULD, SO IF IT'S IN MORE OR LESS THE SAME LOCATION AS JUST A NEW AIR CONDITIONER.
SO THE PROBLEM IS THOUGH, THAT OFTENTIMES THE MECHANICAL UNIT ISN'T THE ONLY THING THAT'S CHANGING.
SOMETIMES PEOPLE NOW HAVE TO ADD PLATFORMS BECAUSE THEY'RE NOW FLOOD, FLOOD, FLOOD AREA.
AND SO ANOTHER PLATFORM DOES INDEED BECOME SOMETHING NEW.
UM, AND WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE'RE THEY'RE PAINTING THEM AND OR STAINING 'EM.
UM, OTHERWISE THEY END UP END SCREAMING THESE THINGS AS WELL.
WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE ALL THAT HAPPENS.
WE'VE ALWAYS SCREENED THE AIR CONDITIONING UNITS, PERIOD.
THAT'S THE ARCHITECTURAL FEATURE.
A CORRAL AROUND A DUMPSTER IS AN ARCHITECTURAL FEATURE, NOT A DUMPSTER.
AND SO JUST THREE, FOUR YEARS AGO I WAS REMINDED THAT PEOPLE ARE PUTTING IN MECHANICAL UNITS ALL AROUND THE HISTORIC DISTRICT, AND THEY'RE LOOKING HIDEOUS BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT SCREENED OR THEY'RE UP ON THESE PLATFORMS AND THEY'RE BUILDING NEW PLATFORMS FOR THE, UM, JUST, UH, THE NEWLY REQUIRED ACCESS TO ELECTRICAL PANELS, WHICH WERE NOW UP TOO HIGH FOR PEOPLE TO SEE IT FROM THE GROUND AND DUH.
SOON WE NEED TO ADD SOMETHING SPECIFIC TO, I'M CONCERNED ABOUT TYPE OF, THAT IF WE COULD HANDLE IT A DIFFERENT WAY, THAT WOULD BE, I WOULD LIKE IT CALLED OUT AND TREATED SEPARATELY.
SO IT'S FAR MORE COMMON SENSE.
I, I THINK WE, WE MAKE SOMETHING THAT TALKS JUST ABOUT THAT, SO IT'S NOT UP TO YOU.
SO EVERYBODY'S CLEAR ON WHAT IT IS.
BUT SOMETIMES, AND FORTUNATELY WHEN THESE GO BACK, THEY ARE TYPICALLY ELEVATED AND YES.
LESS APPEALING, BUT WE CANNOT REALLY CONTROL THAT.
WE CAN JUST, LIKE SHE JUST SAID VERY CLEARLY, LIKE THE FEATURE IS HOW YOU SCREEN IT.
I THINK AS A, AS AN OWNER, I'M THINKING A NEW AIR CONDITIONER MAINTENANCE.
I WANTED TO MAKE A POINT ABOUT LOCATION.
LOTS OF TIMES WHEN YOU'RE PLACING HVC COMPONENTS THAT ARE 10 OR 20 YEARS OLD, THE MECHANICS CHANGE LOCATIONS DUE TO MAYBE A DRIVEWAY OR, OR SOMETHING.
SO I, I DON'T WANNA BE TOO STUCK ON THAT LOCATION BECAUSE SOMETIMES IT'S A NECESSITY TO CHANGE IT FROM THE LEFT TO THE RIGHT TO THE BACK.
THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.
BUT THAT COULD BE THEN A MINOR AS OPPOSED TO A RK.
AND ONE THING, BECAUSE WE'VE INCREASED THE NUMBERS OF MINORS, THEN MATT HAS TO HAVE MUCH MORE SPECIFIC DEFINITIONS FOR THOSE MINORS.
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WE DID IN THE PAST, BUT THE FACT THAT IT'S A MINOR NOW AND IT'S NOT GONNA HAVE TO GO TO A, TO A HEARING AND WHATEVER THAT MAKES IT EVEN CHANGING LOCATIONS OR WHATEVER.IT'S JUST, IT'S NOT AS SIMPLE AS A, NOT NOTIFICATION.
I GUESS THE OTHER THING ON SOME OF THESE IS, DO THEY ALL NEED TO BE THEIR OWN SECTION? COULD THEY BE LIKE A CLARIFICATION FOOTNOTE? IS THERE A WAY TO DO THAT? WELL, IT'S, IT'S AN ORDINANCE AND SO I THINK THE ANSWER IS PROBABLY NOT, PROBABLY NEED TO HAVE A SEPARATE PARAGRAPH EITHER HERE OR IN MAINTENANCE OR, OR BOTH.
OR ONE RE THAT'S COMMON AS A REQUEST AS THIS IS, I THINK IT'S FINE TO MAKE IT SEPARATE, BUT I DO LIKE IT PUT WITH MAINTENANCE STUFF.
NEXT THING I HAVE IS GREATLY EXPAND.
THIS IS SOMETHING WE'VE DONE GREATLY.
EXTENDED THE LIST OF MINOR WORKS FOR APPROVAL WITHOUT FORMAL HEARING.
WHAT WE'VE GOT IN THERE IS LIGHTING, LANDSCAPING, REAR POOLS, NON HISTORIC ACCESSORY STRUCTURE, DEMOLITION BULKHEAD AND PIERS AND PARKING.
AND I'LL JUST RELY ON MATT, IF WE HAVE THINGS COME UP IN THE FUTURE TO ADD TO THAT, WE CAN DO IT READILY.
BUT DOES ANYBODY HAVE PROBLEMS WITH WHAT WE HAVE NOW? MATT? DO YOU HAVE PROBLEMS WITH WHAT WE HAVE NOW? YOU KNOW, THE LIST HAS EXPANDED JUST IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS TO BE SIGNIFICANT, WHICH I THINK HELPS THE PROCESS.
BUT DOES PUT MORE WORK IN SOME WAYS ON YOU.
YOU OBVIOUSLY, YOU DON'T HAVE TO GET READY FOR A HEARING, BUT YOU STILL HAVE TO HAVE TO GO THROUGH IT.
ALL OF IT'S, UH, CREATING LESS WORK FOR ME.
WHAT ABOUT LIGHTING? DO WE NEED TO ADD LIGHTING? ISN'T THAT SOMETHING YOU COULD APPROVE AS A MINOR? EXTERIOR LIGHTING? IT'S ALREADY IN, I THINK EXTERIOR.
I DIDN'T SEE, YEAH, LIGHTING WAS FIRST.
I'M GONNA MOVE THAT TO THE END IF WE HAVE TIME.
BUT, UM, THAT'S REALLY A LEGAL QUESTION MORE SO THAN WHAT WE THINK, WHICH IS ABOUT WHAT, ALLOWING OTHER PEOPLE TO SPEAK AT COA HEARINGS, UM, EVEN IF THEY MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE STANDING.
SO MOVING TO ANY, ANYTHING ELSE FROM CHAPTER ONE? AND, AND, AND THE REASON I I I, I, I KNOW I'VE BEEN ANNOYING ABOUT THIS ONE, BUT I THINK IT DOES GIVE THE PEOPLE THE OPPORTUNITY WHO WERE IN THE AUDIENCE A CHANCE JUST TO GET IT OFF THEIR, OFF THEIR CHEST AND, AND, AND SAY IT, EVEN THOUGH THEY DON'T HAVE STANDING AND WE SAY YOU DON'T HAVE STANDING, THEY STILL THEN FEEL LIKE THEY HAD, WE'RE PART OF THE PROCESS.
BUT DOES THAT INFLUENCE THE COUNCIL? US YOU KNOW, AS FAR AS THE, IT SHOULDN'T BE UNLESS THEY BRING UP, THEY BRING UP SOMETHING, THEY BRING UP A STANDARD, THEY THEY REFERENCE SOMETHING, THEY BRING UP INFORMATION THAT WE DON'T KNOW OR SHOULD KNOW.
BUT I WOULD SAY MOST OF THE TIME, NO, THAT'S, I MEAN, EVEN IF THEY DO, THAT'S KIND OF IMPROPER BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE STANDING, IT'S QUASI-JUDICIAL HEARING.
SO WE DON'T HAVE MUCH LATITUDE.
AND SECONDLY, IF THEY SAY SOMETHING THAT EITHER THEN ONE OF US MIMICS OR HAS SOME PART OF THE CHANGE, THAT'S AN IMMEDIATE APPEAL REASON.
'CAUSE WE TOOK TESTIMONY FROM SOMEONE THAT DID NOT HAVE STANDING.
SO YOU WANT TO TRY TO AVOID THAT.
I THINK WHAT THE LAW SAYS IS THAT YOU CAN ONLY CONSIDER THE COMPETENT TESTIMONY.
YOUR RULES OF PROCEDURE ARE TYPICALLY WHERE YOU DECIDE WHO CAN OR CANNOT SPEAK.
SO THERE'S DIFFERENT WAYS TO HANDLE THIS.
AND, BUT TIM SHARED SOMETHING WITH ME WORKING FROM SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT THAT BECAUSE YOU LIVED WITHIN A HUNDRED FEET DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN YOU HAVE STANDARD.
SO WE USE THAT AS, AS A GUIDE, BUT ACCORDING TO ACCOUNT OF THE COURTS, THAT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING UNLESS YOU GO TO COURT.
WELL, YOU CAN ENUNCIATE YOUR CONCERN, BUT YOU MAY NOT HAVE STANDING, YOU MAY NOT BE ABLE TO APPEAL THE DECISION.
IN OUR CASE, OR EVEN SPEAK, YOU CAN SPEAK, YOU WOULDN'T EVEN HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO TALK ABOUT.
AND THEN, THEN JAMIE IS, WHICH COULD BE AN EXPERT TO JUMP IN TO STOP US, WHICH, WHICH IS GREAT.
I WILL REFER TO YOU TO THE COURT CASE DECIDED IN, UH, CRAVEN COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT RELATED TO THE TOWNHOUSE PROJECT.
IT VERY CLEARLY STATES THAT ALTHOUGH ONE, ALTHOUGH ONE PERSON LIVED DIRECTLY BESIDE THE PROJECT, THEY DID NOT HAVE STANDING.
YET THE, UH, ONE OF THE OTHER CASES SAID THAT THEY DID
[00:30:01]
BECAUSE THEY WERE IN CLOSE PROXIMITY.THAT'S FOR THE APPEALS COURT TO DECIDE.
WELL, WE DON'T WANT TO GO THERE.
BY THE WAY, I WOULD REFER EVERYONE TO TWO, TWO ARTICLES, UH, COMING FROM THE NORTH CAROLINA LOCAL GOVERNMENT LAW BLOG.
YOU CAN GET TO THAT THROUGH THE, UH, UNC GOVERNMENT, UNC SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT WEBSITE.
ONE IS CAN THE NEIGHBOR SPEAK? CAN THE NEIGHBOR APPEAL STANDING IN QUASI-JUDICIAL HEARINGS BY ADAM LOVELADY? THE OTHER IS, CAN TIME LIMITS BE IMPOSED ON SPEAKERS AT A ZONING HEARING, UH, BY DAVID OWENS.
THESE ARE THE TWO LEADING EXPERTS IN NORTH CAROLINA ALONG LAND USE LAW PRESERVATION LAW IS BASED ON LAND USE LAW IN NORTH CAROLINA.
AND WE'VE DONE A GOOD JOB SO FAR, HOWEVER, PERMIT PROCESS.
ONE BIG CHANGE, IF YOU NOTICE, WAS THE ADDITION OF A, A, UH, DEVELOPMENT PATTERN FOR THE NEW CRAVEN TERRACE DEVELOPMENT.
AND WHAT IS IN THERE, I ASSUME FROM SOME SOURCES STACKED PODIUM, UM, MIKE, MIKE SUGGESTED MULTIFAMILY CLUSTER, BUT THE, THE, AND OTHER PEOPLE USE STACK PODIUM.
IT'S JUST THAT FOR, FOR THE, FOR GENERAL PUBLIC.
THAT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE, LIKE, LIKE MUCH OF A DEVELOPMENT.
THE WHOLE IDEA WITH THE PODIUM IS THAT YOU HAVE YOUR PARKING UNDERNEATH.
AND JOHN, YOU CAN PROBABLY LET ME KNOW, BUT THE CONCEPT IS YOU HAVE PARKING UNDERNEATH SO YOU CAN BUILD ON TOP AND STAY OUT OUT OF THE, UH, THE FLOODPLAIN.
BUT IF I, AS I RECALL THESE, SOME OF THESE, UH, BUILDINGS ARE, MIGHT BE WRAP PROJECTS WHERE THE PARKING GARAGE IS IN THE MIDDLE AND THEY'RE GONNA HAVE THE, THE APARTMENTS, WHICH IS NOT A PODIUM.
SO I WAS JUST TRYING TO BROADEN IT.
NOT SAYING YOU COULDN'T BUILD THE, THE, THE PODIUM, BUT GIVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE THE SAME RULES AFFECTING SIMILAR KIND OF MULTI-FAMILY GROUPINGS.
LIKE WHAT, WHAT TRENT AND THE OTHER THING I WAS GONNA SAY IS, I, I DON'T THINK YOU WANT TO SAY THIS IS SPECIFICALLY FOR THAT PROJECT.
I THINK YOU WANT TO LEAVE IT OPEN AND SAY, THIS IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF IT.
YOU DON'T WANT TO BE LIKE, LIKE A SPOT ZONING KIND OF THING OR, OR A SPOT DEVELOPMENT JUST FOR A PARTICULAR PROJECT, BUT MAKE IT AVAILABLE EVEN THOUGH IT MIGHT NOT BE USED ANYWHERE ELSE.
WE HAVE WHAT DENSE FABRIC DOWNTOWN.
SO THE CURRENT TAX PROPOSAL DOES SAY, AS AN EXAMPLE, UH, THE TRENT COURT, PUBLIC HOUSING COMPLEX, DA DA DA DA.
HAS THAT IN AS AN EXAMPLE, BUT NOT DEVELOPED.
THERE'S ONE SECTION TALKED ABOUT AS DEVELOPED AS THE TRENT.
AND I MAY HAVE THIS MISINTERPRETED.
I THOUGHT THE STACKING WAS THE IDEA AS IT WENT UP THE HILL.
NO, IT'S THE IDEA THAT IT'S BUILT ON, ON A PLATFORM.
WELL, PODIUM OR PODIUM PLATFORM, IT'S STACKED STACK.
A LOT OF TIMES IT'S TWO DIFFERENT ACTUAL BUILDINGS AND BUILDING TYPES.
A LOT OF TIMES YOU'VE GOT FOUR OVER ONE IS THE LAYOUT OUT HERE A LOT.
IT'S A NON-COMBUSTIBLE STRUCTURE WITH A, WITH A FIRE RATED BARRIER.
AND THEN A LOT OF TIMES YOU GET WOOD, YOU GET UP TO FOUR STORIES OF WOOD THAT ARE BUILT ON TOP OF IT.
SO THAT'S KIND OF WHERE THEY CAME UP WITH THE PODIUM I IDEAS PART PARTLY.
AND THAT A LOT OF THAT HAS TO DO WITH, WITH IBC AND CODE LANGUAGE AND HOW THE, HOW THE CODE INTERPRETS HOW YOU CAN BUILD AND CONSTRUCT A BUILDING.
BUT MATT, TELL ME IF I'M WRONG, BUT IT WASN'T THERE A, NOT ALL OF THE BUILDINGS IN THERE WERE THAT THEY DID HAVE SOME WRAPS.
THEY DID HAVE SOME OTHER THINGS.
SO THAT'S WHY I WAS LOOKING BACK SOMETHING MORE, MORE GENERAL.
WE COULD PROBABLY WORK ON THE TERM.
CAN I SUGGEST THAT THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WILL BE DECIDED? I THINK THAT WOULD BE AWESOME.
DEVELOPMENT SERVICES WILL DECIDE THE NAME OF IT,
BUT SOMETHING THAT, THAT TO ME STEP WHEN SOMEONE SAYS, HEY, THIS IS GONNA BE A, YOU KNOW, A STACKED PODIUM DEVELOPMENT OTHER THAN THE PEOPLE IN THIS ROOM AND AND YOUR OFFICE.
NO ONE'S GONNA KNOW WHAT, WHAT THAT MEANS.
NO, I THINK, YEAH, WE NEEDED MORE, SLIGHTLY MORE GENERIC STACKED FLATS IS ONE OF YOUR, THAT'S NOT QUITE WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT IN WEAVE.
SO, UH, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THAT DESCRIPTION IN THERE FOR THAT, THE ENTIRE THING I THINK IS UP TO THE CITY.
I HAVE SOME SUGGESTIONS TO CLARIFY WHAT, WHAT A DEFINITION FROM A CITY PLANNING DEPARTMENT WOULD LOOK LIKE.
I MEAN, THAT WE CAN ALWAYS EDIT WHATEVER THEY COME UP WITH AND SUGGEST CHANGES.
BUT I THINK FOR RIGHT NOW, THAT'S WHERE THE EXPERTISE IS.
[00:35:02]
I DON'T THINK ANYBODY'S OPPOSED TO THE CONCEPT OF HAVING A, UM, A, A DIFFERENT DEVELOPMENT PATTERN BECAUSE IT DOESN'T FIT WATERFRONT.IT DOESN'T FIT ANY OF OUR OTHER ONES.
SO IT MAKES SENSE TO HAVE SOMETHING ELSE THAT THIS DOES FALL INTO.
I DON'T, I DON'T THINK IT AND WOULD IT EXTEND ALL THE WAY TO FIVE POINTS QUESTION THERE? IT'S ALSO KIND OF A, LIKE A ZONING KIND OF LAND USE THING TOO, BECAUSE THE, THE DEVELOPMENT AREA IS FIVE POINTS, NOT PART OF OUR, THE HISTORIC DISTRICT DOESN'T HIT FIVE POINTS, BUT, BUT UH, DO THEY WANT A DIFFERENT NAME OR, EXCEPT THE, UM, 2.3 HAS SOME CLARIFICATION ON UTILITY SYSTEM SCREENING AND PAINTING.
AND THAT'S WHERE WE GET INTO PAINTING EXPOSED, PIPING, EXPOSED EVERYTHING ELSE, AND NOT EXPOSED UTILITY.
AND, AND I DON'T THINK WE WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE TO PAINT THEIR AIR CONDITION MAIN BRAND APPLIANCES.
BECAUSE THE PAINT WILL LOOK WORSE.
BUT IF, IF A PIPE, A PIPE IS ON THE EXTERIOR OF THE BUILDING, GRAY BUILDING, LET'S PAINT THE PIPE GRAY.
OTHER WAY, JOHN, I I DO LIKE THE TERM STACKED.
YOU KNOW, AS SOON AS I SAID THAT, I, I, THAT THAT, CAN WE EDIT THAT OUT OF, OF THE, BUT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT MULTIFAMILY CLUSTERS OR, OR PODIUMS, BECAUSE THE, THE CONCEPT OF STACK KIND OF IS JUST WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.
IT, IT, IT'S KIND OF A MULTIPLE LEVEL KIND OF THING.
BUT THEN YOU GET IN, YOU KNOW, IT'S, I THINK WE NEED SOMETHING THAT'S AS ALL ENCOMPASSING AS OH, YOU DO.
OF WHICH ALL OF THOSE THINGS COULD FALL INTO.
AND THEN 'CAUSE THEN YOU GET INTO ALSO LIKE TOWN HOMES.
I THINK I'M GONNA ASK THE ARCHITECT WHO DESIGNED THAT PROJECT, HOW HE WOULD CLASSIFY THAT PATTERN AND, AND CALL IT SOMETHING.
I THINK THAT PROBABLY HE DOES THIS WORK IN NEW ORLEANS AND PLUS CAN'T WE HAVE, HE'S PROBABLY HEARD SOME CREATIVE THINGS.
CAN'T WE HAVE A GLOSSER OR INDEX THAT SAID IT WOULD STACK WITH THE DEFINITIONS? MEANS THAT WE REFER TO, WE'LL DO, TO DO SOME DEFINITION WORK.
THAT'S GOOD IN GENERAL BECAUSE WE'RE USING NEW WORDS.
ALL THAT SAID, WE DON'T WANT TO DESTROY WHAT HE'S DONE.
OH, IT MAY ALREADY HAVE A VERY SPECIFIC NAME.
SO AGAIN, SO SOMETHING WE, WE THINK WE CLEANED UP IS UTILITIES SYSTEM SCREENING AND PAINTING.
GIVEN THE LANDSCAPING, WE HAVE FEWER REQUIREMENTS NOW FOR MINOR LANDSCAPING APPROVAL.
LIKE CHANGING THE FLOWER BEDS IS, IS JUST, UH, MAINTENANCE.
BUT, AND I BELIEVE WE REDUCED THE ARBORIST REQUIREMENT.
WHAT IS IN THE TEXT NOW IS WE CAN REQUEST AN ARBORIST.
IS THAT RIGHT? NO, WE CAN REQUIRE, UH, YEAH.
I WOULD, I I REMEMBER CHANGING IT.
HPC MAY REQUEST EVALUATION BY AN ARMED RISK FOR REQUEST FOR REMOVAL OF A MATURE CANOPY TREE.
DOES THAT CONFLICT WITH THE CITY ORDINANCE ABOUT RISK? MY RECOMMENDATION IS THAT YOU CHOOSE DIFFERENT WORDS OTHER THAN REQUEST MM-HMM
UH, BECAUSE YOU CAN EITHER REQUIRE, YEAH, I THINK THE WORD SHOULD BE REQUIRED OR YOU CANNOT REQUIRE, BECAUSE IF YOU ARE SAYING YOU CAN REQUEST IT, WELL WHAT IF THEY DENY IT? I DON'T WANT TO SPEND TOO, TOO MUCH TIME ON THIS.
I WANT TO TAKE WHAT WE HAVE AND LET SCOTT LOOK AT IT AND HAVE SCOTT GET IT HOW HE WANTS IT.
'CAUSE HE'S THE ONE THAT ULTIMATELY DECIDES SOME OF THESE THINGS ON THE TREES.
I'M GONNA TAKE WHERE IT IS RIGHT NOW AND WE'LL HAVE SCOTT.
SCOTT, HOW ABOUT GENERAL LANDSCAPING? ARE WE, HOW MUCH DO WE WANT TO GET INVOLVED WITH SOMEBODY COMING IN? OBVIOUSLY WHEN WE GET A, A ARCHITECT DESIGNED GARDEN, WE SELL THEM, DON'T DO ANYTHING BUT APPROVE IT.
AND SO HOW MUCH DO WE WANT TO GET IN THE WEEDS WITH SOMEONE WHO JUST WANTS TO PUT A FEW PLANTS IN, WANTS TO PUT MAYBE A COUPLE TREES, BUT NOT IN THE PLANTING STRIP? DO WE CARE? NO, I'M JUST LOOKING TO SEE THEY HAVE TREES AND IF THEY HAVE BUSH, I DON'T, ZONING SHOULD COVER THE HALF.
IF THEY'RE REPLACING A TREE IS DIFFERENT THAN PUTTING A TREE IN.
I THINK ZONING HAS NO REQUIREMENTS FOR PRIVATE, NOT FOR RESIDENTIAL.
DOES IT COVER THINGS LIKE 30 FEET
[00:40:01]
FROM CORNERS OR THINGS LIKE THAT? NOT, NOT FOR RESIDENTIAL THINGS LIKE, LIKE A HOME.I THINK THE ANSWER, JEN, IS EVERYBODY AGREES WITH YOU.
WE DID HAVE SOMEONE AGAIN THAT WANTED TO DO, OH, I THINK A FENCE ACTUALLY ON THE CORNER THAT WAS GOING TO BE A TRAFFIC HAZARD.
SO I THINK PUBLIC WORKS OR SOMEBODY, THE STREETS DIVISION, I GUESS THEY STEPPED IN AND SAID NO, MAYBE THAT, YEAH.
THINGS THAT INTERFERE WITH SITE TRIANGLES ARE A LIFE AND SAFETY ISSUE.
AND THAT'S, AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'M THINKING.
I'VE DEALT WITH A LOT OF JURISDICTIONS THAT HAVE LIKE A 30 FOOT CORNER REQUIREMENT.
BUT THAT'S NOT A HISTORIC DISTRICT ISSUE.
THAT'S WHY I WAS WONDERING IF THEY, IF WE KICKED THAT OVER THAT.
AND THERE'S SOMETHING IN THERE.
I ASKED TIM THE OTHER DAY, WHAT ARE HISTORIC PLANT ROWS? AND I THINK THAT IF, IF WE SAY HEDGE ROWS, IS THAT MORE WHERE WE AFTER? YES.
AND HOW DO WE KNOW THEY'RE HISTORIC? I MEAN, HOW, WELL, HOW WOULD YOU KNOW THEY'RE LAST YEARS, THEY'RE HISTORIC.
DO WE HAVE ANY HISTORIC HEDGE ROADS? I THINK THESE ARBOROUS THINGS MORE COMPLICATED EVER.
SO, YOU KNOW, MIGHT CONSIDER WHETHER WE NEED HISTORIC, I DON'T EVEN THINK WE NEED EDGE ROADS OR ANYTHING.
SO THE, THE BIGGEST, THE BIGGEST THING THAT HAS CHANGED HERE IS THIS WORD INDIGENOUS HAS BEEN REMOVED AND IT'S BEEN CHANGED TO COMMONLY FOUND GOING, GOING ALONG WITH JIM MORRISON RULE THAT IF YOU BUY IT AT LOWE'S, IT'S OKAY.
UH, BEYOND THAT, YOU KNOW, IF THEY'RE USING, IF YOU USING TYPICAL, TYPICAL PLANTS THAT YOU FIND 'EM IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT.
YOU COULD, YOU COULD, I MEAN, YOU COULD
YOU COULD MOVE, LET BUILD A POP POP FOR ASTRO I CARE.
HAS ANYBODY HAD CRAFTED TURF, MATT? UM, NO.
I'VE SEEN THAT ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO PUT IT, WELL, SOMEBODY WILL PUT SOMETHING RIGHT ON THE EDGE OF DOWNTOWN AND THEY, WE HAVE SOME AGAIN.
WELL, MOLLY'S BRINGING UP, IF YOU PUT THE PALM TREE IN THE BACKYARD, IS THAT OKAY? I'VE SEEN HIM IN THE FRONT YARD TOO SOMETIMES.
THEY DON'T BOTHER ME IN THEIR BACKPACK.
IT'S ONE DOING THE ENTIRE, UH, GROVE AND ENTIRE LANDSCAPING.
I KNOW ONE LANDSCAPE ARCHITECT WHO HAS A PALM TREE.
SO IF THERE'S THREE, DOES THAT MEAN THEY'RE COMMON
ANYTHING? WELL, THE, YOU DO WANNA MAKE SURE YOU KEEP THE PROVISIONS FOR YOUR PARKING, RIGHT? SCREENING, PARKING, SCREENING AND PARKING.
SO IT'S NOT LIKE THE TOTAL NO, NO, NO.
YOU KNOW, DELETE ON LANDSCAPING.
THAT'S, THAT'S IN THE PARKING SECTION, I BELIEVE NOT.
RIGHT? UH, IT MAY ALSO BE IN PARKING.
2.4 0.4 TREES FOR AND OTHER LANDSCAPE FEATURES AROUND THE PERIPHERY OF LARGE SURFACE PARKING AREAS AND WITHIN PARKING ISLANDS.
THAT'S ALL I HAVE ON CHAPTER TWO.
ANYBODY, ANYTHING ELSE? UH, RICHARD, IS THERE ANY, LIKE A, ANY ROCK WALL THAT'S OVER A HUNDRED YEARS OLD IN THE FIRST FLOOR? DO YOU KNOW OF ANY ROCK WALL? ANY KIND OF ROCK LIKE OR YEAH.
WELL, JUST, JUST CEDAR YOUR GROVE, RIGHT? IS THAT, WHAT IS THAT NEW STREET? UM, THE FOUNDATION FOR JOHN BARN'S HOUSE.
AND THE, AND THE, AND THE WALL ALONG THE SIDEWALK.
WHAT'S THE, UM, THE PILOT? UH, YEAH, WHAT'S HIS NAME? THAT'S ALL TO BE CONSIDERED.
WERE THE FIG VINES ARE ALL OVER THIS? YEAH.
THERE'S A, IT IS A SHORT MORAL WALL IN FRONT
[00:45:01]
OF, WHAT'S THAT? THAT'S NAME.UM, I KNOW HIS EX WIFE IS JOHN.
THE EX-WIFE YOU SAID WHAT? ARE YOU ON CRAIG STREET? NO, HE'S FRONT STREET.
IF WE CAN MOVE TO CHAPTER THREE ACROSS FROM THE BELL HOUSE.
AND THEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE, UH, RICHARD MOREHOUSE.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HOUSE IS CALLED.
SO CHAPTER THREE GREATLY EXPANDS SUBSTITUTE MATERIALS.
THIS IS A BIG ONE COMING FROM PRESERVATION BRIEF.
16 SUBSTITUTE MATERIALS PERMITTED ON NON HISTORIC AND NEW ADDITIONS.
THIS GIVES NEW ADDITIONS, PARITY WITH INFILL CONSTRUCTION.
THAT'S THE BIG HEADLINE THAT WOULD CHANGE WHAT WE DO NOW.
SO WITH THAT, I THINK WE NEED TO DISCUSS WHAT CONTEMPORARY FEATURES MIGHT BE ALLOWABLE IN CONTRIBUTING TERTIARY AREA BUILDINGS.
ARE THERE ANY FEATURES AS, AS ADDITION, NOT ADDITIONS, BUT LET'S SAY YOU WANT TO PUT A DOOR, A TEMPORARY OH, ON, ON THE, ON THE, ON THE, ON THE BACK OF YOUR HOUSE.
THERE'S YOUR HISTORICAL CONTRIBUTING.
WELL, WE AGREE THAT WE HAVE DIFFERENT TYPES OF WINDOWS ON THE FRONT AND DIFFERENT TYPES OF WINDOWS IN THE BACK.
WELL, THAT, THAT'S A QUESTION.
IS THAT A, THAT'S, THAT'S, I THINK THAT'S A QUESTION ON THE TABLE.
WE NEED TO DECIDE WHAT'S GOING TO THE DRAFT ON THIS TODAY.
HOW MUCH DO WE PERMIT FOR THE BACK OF A CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURE IN CONTEMPORARY MATERIAL MODIFICATIONS? WHICH GOES RIGHT BACK INTO THE DISCUSSION OF PUBLIC WAYS.
SO DOORS ARE DIFFERENT THAN WINDOWS.
YEAH, I WAS GONNA SAY, DOORS ARE SOMETHING THAT THE, THOSE ARE SOME SAFETY ISSUES AND SOME LATER ADDITIONS ON HISTORIC PROPERTY.
AND IT ALSO GETS INTO THEN PRESERVATION SIXTEENS, UH, FEASIBILITY ISSUES.
IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM YOU ARE TRYING TO SOLVE, LET'S SAY YOU, YOUR BACK DOOR HAS DETERIORATED THREE TIMES IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS BECAUSE OF WIND OR AND HAIL OR BECAUSE YOU BOUGHT CRAFTY MATERIALS.
WELL, BUT THAT IS ONE OF THE EXCEPTIONS THAT THEY PUT IN UNDER FEASIBILITY.
IT SAYS THE SAME THING ABOUT WINDOWS.
BUT, BUT WHAT DO WE WANT TO ALLOW ON THE BACK OF THAT HISTORIC STRUCTURE? I, I THINK WHAT WE SAID IS THAT DOORS ARE, ARE DIFFERENT THAN WINDOWS.
I MEAN IT TRUE OBVIOUSLY, BUT I THINK THE CONCEPT IS HISTORIC DOORS.
UH, FALL APART FASTER THAN NEW ONES.
WELL, I THINK FROM A, FROM A BREAK IN STANDPOINT, YOU KNOW, WE, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE ONE DOWNTOWN ON THE BACK LOT, WE SAID, WELL, OF COURSE THEY ARE.
THEY NEED A METAL DOOR IN THE BACK OF, OF THEIR STRUCTURE.
AND YET IT IS A HISTORIC STRUCTURE.
IT'S, IT'S, UH, ON THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY.
BUT WE, NO ONE, WE, NO ONE SEEMED TO HAVE A PROBLEM ACKNOWLEDGING THAT A METAL DOOR MADE SENSE FOR THE FACT OF A HISTORIC PROPERTY.
SO WHY WOULDN'T THAT MAKE SENSE TO HAVE A, A FIBERGLAS OR A MORE SECURE DOOR ON A, ON A, IN THE TERTIARY OF A HISTORIC C NOW LET ME ASK MATT, I I COULD BE WRONG WITH IF, IF MAYBE, MAYBE, YOU KNOW, METAL DOOR, METAL DOORS WERE AVAILABLE A HUNDRED YEARS AGO.
MATT SUPPOSE IT WAS NOT A, NOT AN ORIGINAL DOOR.
WHAT WOULD YOU DO IN THAT CASE? IT'S NOT A ONE.
THEY DON'T KNOW WHEN, HOW, BUT I WOULD, I WOULD SO, UM, ALLOW A REPLACEMENT THAT IS OF THE MATERIAL THAT WAS AVAILABLE AT THE TIME THE BUILDING WAS CONSTRUCTED.
SO, SO WE'RE NOT, WE'RE NOT, NOT ALLOWING 'EM TO CHANGE THE SIZES OF THE WINDOWS.
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WINDOWS AND DOORS.
DO WE REALLY WANT ON, ON THE PRIMARY STRUCTURE, THE ABILITY TO REPLACE WINDOWS WITH CONTEMPORARY MATERIALS? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
I, I, I, I GOT, I'M OKAY WITH CHANGING A DOOR OUT, I THINK, BUT I'M NOT OKAY WITH CHANGING OUT WINDOWS ON THE PRIMARY STRUCTURE.
EVEN EVEN A DOOR, DEPENDING ON WHAT THE DOOR IS MAKE IT'S AN ORIGINAL DOOR OR A DOOR THAT'S BEEN THERE, YOU KNOW, A HUNDRED YEARS.
NO, SEE, THAT'S THE PURPOSE OF WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO.
SO WHY NOT? LET'S SAY THAT IT IS A WOODEN DOOR THAT, THAT THAT'S 80 YEARS OLD AND IT'S, IT'S TOAST.
[00:50:01]
GONNA SAY, WELL YOU GOTTA NEED TO TAKE SOMEBODY AND REPAIR THAT DOOR.IT'S OLD, BUT IT'S NOT ORIGINAL.
YOU'RE SAYING I CAN'T PUT A REPLICA METAL DRAWER THERE.
BUT THE DOOR IS ACQUIRED IN SOME HISTORIC SIGNIFICANCE AT 80 YEARS OLD.
SO, BUT AT A MINIMUM YOU GO BACK WITH THAT 8-YEAR-OLD DOOR.
SO I MEAN, TO TO, TO HIS POINT.
WHAT I MEAN LIKE, WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST A ROTTED DOOR BE DONE IF IT'S 80 YEARS OLD? WELL, IF EXCEPT LASTED 80 YEARS, I THINK YOU PUT ANOTHER ONE ON AND WORRY ABOUT IT AGAIN.
WELL, I MEAN, YOU'RE DISCUSSING WHETHER OR NOT THEY CAN REPLACE IT OR IF THEY HAVE TO REPAIR IT.
AND IF YOU'RE SAYING THEY HAVE TO REPAIR IT, WHAT IS THE REPAIR FOR AN 80-YEAR-OLD ROTTED DOOR? TIM JUST DID HIS PHONE.
WELL, I THINK MATT'S SAYING THAT YOU COULD REPLACE IT WITH WOOD OR METAL.
BUT I WOULD ASSUME THAT IT CAN'T BE REPAIRED FIRST.
AND THEY, THEY'D HAVE TO TELL US THAT.
SO WE ALREADY TREAT THINGS THAT WAY RIGHT NOW.
SO NOW ASSUMING IT'S CAN'T BE REPAIRED.
'CAUSE THE QUESTION WAS ABOUT GETTING THE CONTEMPORARY MATERIAL.
AND WHAT ABOUT FINDING THE ARTISAN TOO THERE? THAT'S GETTING HARDER AND HARDER.
SO, SO WE HAVE A NEW THAT THERE'S A NEW, THERE'S A NEW COMPANY IN TOWN THAT DOES THAT.
COMPANIES, COMPANIES OPEN AND CLOSED EVERY DAY.
ARE ARE, ARE WE OKAY WITH THEN NOT ALLOWING CONTEMPORARY MATERIALS ON THE MAIN STRUCTURE? HISTORIC STRUCTURE, HISTORIC CONTRIBUTING, CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURE? THAT'S THE QUESTION.
THE, THE, THE CORNER OVER THERE.
I I I THINK IT'S A SLIPPERY SLOPE.
UH, ALLOWING, UH, ALLOWING CONTEMPORARY MATERIALS ON A PRIMARY STRUCTURE.
YOU'RE REALLY VIOLATING THE INTEGRITY OF THE STRUCTURE, WHICH IS ONE OF THE KEY THINGS WITH, WITH WHAT'S IN THE STATE STATUTES, UH, WHAT'S WHAT'S IN THE ORDINANCE.
I MEAN, THAT'S, THAT'S THE WHOLE THING.
SO, SO YOU ALLOW THEM TO PUT ON A NEW WOODEN DOOR.
I MEAN, WE, WE'VE RUN INTO THIS BEFORE WHERE SOMEONE, SOMEONE HAS A, YOU KNOW, A CRAPPY DOOR FROM THE SIXTIES AND THEY WANT TO COME BACK AND PUT IN A, A PERIOD APPROPRIATE DOOR.
AND WE HAVE ALLOWED, WE HAVE ALLOWED THAT TAKE A CRAPPY DOOR THAT WAS PUT IN IN THE SIXTIES.
WE WILL ALLOW A PERIOD APPROPRIATE DOOR FOR THAT STRUCTURE TO GO IN.
WHY WOULD YOU NOT ALLOW WHAT'S, ALLOW THAT WOOD? WHY WOULD YOU NOT ALLOW THAT? IT SEEMS LIKE THAT SHOULD BE A, A-A-A-A-A, LET'S SAY COMPLIMENTARY, A COMPLIMENTARY MAY NOT BE ARCHITECTURAL FEATURE.
SO, SO HOW ABOUT TAKE THAT SAME CRAPPY DOOR, WHATEVER, WHATEVER SCENARIO.
AND NOW WOULD YOU ALLOW A CONTEMPORARY MATERIAL DOOR TO GO IN THERE THAT IS PERIOD APPROPRIATE IN ITS STYLE? I DO, I DO PERSONALLY LIKE THE IDEA OF PERIOD APPROPRIATE MATERIALS AND, AND MAYBE IT'S, IT'S A, A CHECKLIST SORT OF THING FOR YOU TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THIS EITHER NEEDS TO BE REPAIRED, IF IT COULD BE REPAIRED OR REPLACED WITH A PERIOD APPROPRIATE DOOR.
IS THERE A REPLACEMENT DOOR WITH PERIOD APPROPRIATE MATERIALS AVAILABLE? MM-HMM
IF THE ANSWER TO BOTH OF THOSE IS NO, THEN YOU'RE GONNA STILL NEED A DOOR.
NOT SAYING THAT A STEEL DOOR OR WOOD DOOR WOULD EVER BE IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND, BUT YOU, IF YOU WANT TO COVER THAT SITUATION, YOU COULD DO THAT.
AND THAT'S WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW.
RIGHT? YOU GET A WOOD DOOR, WHICH WAS APPROPRIATE WHEN THAT CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURE WAS BUILT.
RIGHT? THAT'S WHERE WE'RE I THINK SO ON THE REAR OF THE PROPERTY, EXCEPT FOR YOU, COULD YOU, YOU USE THE FIBERGLASS APPEARED APPROPRIATE DOOR, YOU KNOW, LIKE A ON THE REAR OF THE PROPERTY, COULD YOU USE A PERIOD LOOKING DOOR? LIKE THEY MAKE THESE CRAFTSMAN DOORS, YOU KNOW, THE THREE LIGHTS AND IF YOU HAVE A CRAFTSMAN HOME, BUT THEY'RE NOT ALL WOOD.
THEY'RE, I THINK THEY'VE MADE UP FIBER GLASS.
UM, IS THAT ALLOWED? BUT SO THE, UH, I'VE ALWAYS TOLD PEOPLE IN THIS SITUATION, THIS ISN'T THE HISTORIC APPEARANCE COMMISSION.
IT'S THE HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION.
AND SO, UM, YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST BECAUSE IT'S ON THE BACK OF THE HOUSE AND THE PUBLIC CAN'T SEE IT.
IT'S STILL A PIECE OF THE HOUSE.
AND SO, UM, FROM, BUT YOU'RE NOT REPLACING HISTORIC FABRIC.
THAT'S KIND OF WHERE THE HARD MM-HMM
[00:55:01]
PART IS.AND YOU KNOW, WE'RE TALKING PRESERVATION TOO.
WE WANT THE HOUSES TO STAND TIME AND BE RESPECTFUL TO THE PAST.
AND SO THERE'S A COMPROMISE BETWEEN THESE NEW MATERIALS, KEEPING THE LOOK OF THE OLD.
AND THAT'S ANOTHER, ANOTHER THING TOO.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE INVENTORY THAT WE'RE ABOUT TO DO, RIGHT? MM-HMM
AND WHETHER OR NOT THESE STRUCTURES ARE 50 YEARS OLD, THE FIBERGLASS DOORS CAME OUT IN THE EARLY EIGHTIES MM-HMM
AND THEY'RE VERY WELL ABOUT TO BE CONSIDERED HISTORIC.
AND PERIOD APPROPRIATE FOR HOUSES BUILT IN THE EIGHTIES.
FOUR HOUSES BUILT IN THE EIGHTIES.
WE DON'T HAVE TOO MANY EIGHTIES HOUSES WITHOUT, WELL THERE THERE'S MORE THAN YOU THINK RIVERSIDE.
WE HAVE APPROVED, WE HAVE APPROVED SLIDING GLASS DOORS ON THE BACK OF HOME SIDE HALL AND RIVERSIDE WITH ON ADDITIONS THAT WERE PUT ON AFTER 1970 MM-HMM
IN ADDITION TO ANOTHER QUESTION MARK.
BUT IT'S ATTACHED TO THE HOUSE.
AND FOR INSTANCE, I'LL EXPAND IT.
WHAT ABOUT CONTEMPORARY COMPONENTS ON EXISTING NON-CONTRIBUTING ADDITIONS? SO THE ADDITION IS PUT ON 10, 15 YEARS AGO.
DO THEY GET THE OPPORTUNITY TO USE CONTEMPORARY MATERIALS, WHICH ARE DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THEY HAVE RIGHT NOW? I THINK.
WHICH PUTS A LITTLE BURDEN ON THAT.
I THINK THAT'S GONNA BE A HARD I HEAR WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.
I THINK IT'D BE A HARD THING TO IMPLEMENT.
UM, WELL, SO TRYING TO DETERMINE WHEN, WHEN EXACTLY AN ADDITION WENT ON.
SO THIS WEEK MY ADDITION'S DONE NEXT WEEK.
I CAN NOW PUT MY PLASTIC WINDOWS IN THERE.
WELL NO, BUT I MEAN I WAS APPROVED TO DO WOOD WINDOWS AND MAYBE I PUT SOME WOOD WINDOWS IN.
I DUNNO, MAYBE I PUT PLYWOOD IN THERE.
DO I GET TO PUT PLASTIC WINDOWS IN OR DO YOU DO LIKE, I THINK YOU MENTIONED EARLIER, SAY OKAY, AS OF THE DATE OF THE, OF THIS ORDINANCE GOING IN BY THEN, ANYTHING THAT'S ALREADY IN THE GROUND THAT'S, THAT'S OLD.
BUT ANYTHING THAT IS BUILT AFTER THIS TIME AND THE SAND IS NOW CONSIDERED TO BE ALLOWED TO BE CONTEMPORARY.
AND THAT'S WHAT I THINK WE WERE AT THE LAST MEETING.
I THINK IT'S EASIER TO ADMINISTER DATE CERTAIN, I I THINK PEOPLE MIGHT SAY FAIRNESS ISSUE AFTER JULY, 2026 WHEN THIS CHANGE ADOPTED.
BUT YOU KNOW, WE PUTTING WOOD WINDOWS IN, BUT HOMEOWNERS HAVEN'T COME BACK AFTER THE WOOD WINDOWS PUT IN, PUT STORM WINDOWS ON.
SO YOU'RE NOT GETTING THE LOOK THAT YOU REALLY WANTED TO CREATE.
YOU'RE GETTING A METAL STORM WINDOW OR ALUMINUM STORM WINDOW.
SO IS THAT ANY BETTER OR ANY WORSE THAN A CLEAN LINE BY THE WINDOW THAT'S DOUBLE PANE FUNCTIONAL.
IS THERE A WINDOW OUT THERE THAT LOOKS GOOD AND GIVES THE HOMEOWNER THE QUALITIES AND COMP FEATURES THEY WANT? COMPOSITE.
WELL THEN YOU CAN, YOU CAN, THEY'RE, THEY'RE NOT CHEAP, BUT YEAH.
WELL, SO I JUST HAD MY OFFICE LAST WEEK THE, UH, SAMPLES FOR FULLY SOLID WOOD WINDOWS.
YOU SAW THAT WITH, UH, DOUBLE PANE GLASS AND UH, FOR SINGLE PANE GLASS.
SO THEY'RE OUT THERE TO DO DOUBLE CANE GLASS AND WOOD.
SO YOU WANT TO DO THAT STONE WINDOW MAYBE.
SO I GUESS THERE'S THREE QUESTIONS HERE.
UH, CONTEMPORARY REAR DOOR ON A HISTORIC STRUCTURE, YES OR NO? DOESN'T SOUND LIKE MANY YESES.
AND, AND, AND I'M LOOKING MAYBE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN COMMERCIAL AND NON-COMMERCIAL.
'CAUSE HOW MANY OF THOSE BUILDINGS DOWNTOWN HAVE WOODEN DOORS ON THE BACK OF THEIR NONE.
SO WE'RE SAYING WE'RE KNOWINGLY SAYING THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING, WE'VE ALLOW THEM TO PUT YEAH.
SO THAT THING STEEL, WOOD, METAL OR STEEL, YOU KNOW, WOOD OR METAL.
BUT RIGHT NOW WE DON'T HAVE A, HAVE A DIFFERENCE.
IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE THERE'S ANY BIG PROPONENTS FOR VINYL WINDOWS ON, ON THE PRIME, ON THE CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURE.
I KNOW I DON'T, DIDN'T HEAR IT OVER THERE, BUT I KNOW I'M NOT GONNA HEAR IT FROM THIS SIDE.
YOU'RE NOT
EXISTING NONCONTRIBUTING COULD HAVE BEEN BUILT 10 YEARS AGO, COULD HAVE BUILT, BEEN BUILT 49 YEARS AGO.
[01:00:02]
AT WHAT POINT DOES AN ADDITION YES.BECOME PART OF THE STRUCTURE? WELL, WE ALWAYS REQUIRE THE TWO INCH OFFSET.
SO, WELL THEY SOMETIMES THEY DON'T DO THAT.
THEY JUST BILL IT RIGHT THERE NEXT TO IT.
WELL, WE'VE GOT PLENTY OF HOUSES DOWNTOWN THAT WERE BUILT IN THE EARLY 19TH CENTURY THAT WERE RENOVATED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE 20TH CENTURY AND NOW ENTERING A NEW REALM AND ACTUALLY BEING AMENDED ON THE REAR WHERE YOU DON'T SEE YEAH, OBJECTION, FORM.
THAT IS AS I THINK IT'S A CASE TO CASE BASIS.
I THINK IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO IMPLEMENT HARD AND FAST FORWARD ON.
WELL, MY EXAMPLE ALWAYS IS I'M GONNA BUMP OUT THE BACK OF THE HOUSE AND PUT A NEW KITCHEN THERE.
BUT WE'VE DESTROYED ALL MASTER FABRIC OR SUN.
HAPPENS ALL THE TIME BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE TO LIVE IN OVEN.
YEAH, WE, YEAH, WE HAVE TO LIVE THERE.
I GUESS, YOU KNOW, MY DOOR IS DETERIORATING, CANNOT PUT SOMETHING THAT IS BETTER.
SO YOU'RE SAYING, WELL YOU CAN THROW UP, BUMP OUT THE, GET RID OF THE WHOLE BACK WALL, BUT THAT DOOR.
YOU NEED TO KEEP THAT CORRECT.
SO, UH, WHAT, WHAT HAPPENS IS THE ADDITION IS DONE WITH WOOD AND WOOD DOORS AND WINDOWS AND WOOD SIDING.
WELL, THAT'S NOT WHAT I THINK THAT'S KIND OF ON THE TABLE NOW.
IS THAT THE ANSWER IS, WELL NO, YOU DON'T HAVE TO.
I LIKE A DATE CERTAIN YOU'RE SAYING AS OF NOW.
UM, BUT TO, TO YOUR POINT, MATT.
IF WE'RE SAYING THAT YOU CAN USE CONTEMPORARY ON NEW ADDITIONS, YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE SEPARATION OF THE, OF THE OLD STRUCTURE AND, AND THE NEW ADDITION AND YOU'RE ALLOWING TO PUT ALL THESE STUFF, BUT THE DOOR, RIGHT NEXT TO THE BACK DOOR, YOU NEED TO HAVE A PERIOD DOOR THERE, EVEN THOUGH YOU'VE BLOWN OUT THE WHOLE BACK OF THE BUILDING TO PUT PARTY BOARD ON.
BUT ARE YOU GONNA USE AN METAL DOOR IN THE STORE? DISTRICT RESIDENTIAL? NO.
BUT YOU MIGHT USE A FULL GLASS DOOR.
I WAS THINKING NOT NOT METAL, BUT NOT METAL.
FULL GLASS, CONTEMPORARY SCREEN DOOR.
SO IT SOUNDS LIKE NO VINYL WINDOWS ON HISTORIC, IT SOUNDS LIKE NO CONTEMPORARY COMPONENTS ON OTHER THAN HISTORIC, EXCUSE ME, ON HISTORIC EXCUSE ON NON HISTORIC ADDITIONS TO HISTORIC STRUCTURES.
WHAT YOU'RE STARTING ON A CERTAIN BASIS.
'CAUSE THE OTHER PART OF THE QUESTION IS, UM, SOMEBODY PUT AN ADDITION ON, UH, A, A CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURE 20 YEARS AGO, OR EVEN 40, 50 YEARS AGO, IS, IS, UH, IS THE ENTIRE HOUSE, I MEAN, THE ENTIRE HOUSE IS DECLARED TO BE, UM, CONTRIBUTING OR NOT CONTRIBUTING.
IT DOESN'T, DOESN'T SAY, WELL, THE FRONT PART OF THE HOUSE IS CONTRIBUTING, BUT THE BACK HOUSE IS NON CONTRIBUTING.
UNLESS YOU WANNA START CREATING THAT KIND OF DISTINCTION.
I'M NOT A PROPONENT, BUT, AND WE'LL HAVE TO GO THROUGH EVERY HOUSE.
THIS IS IN WHAT YOU GOT IN HERE.
UH, IS IS THE SECOND, IS THE SEPARATE PART IN THIS, SEE WHAT I'M SAYING? NO, UM, THE, UH, THE MATERIALS.
THAT'S NOT, THERE'S REALLY NOTHING.
THERE'S REALLY NOTHING IN THE, IN, IN THIS DRAFT.
I SAW IT RELATED TO, UH, WHAT DO I CALL IT? COMPONENTS.
SO IT SOUNDS LIKE WE WANT TO TAKE US TO DATE CERTAIN FOR ADDITIONS, BECAUSE WHAT WE'RE REALLY DOING THEN IN THAT 20-YEAR-OLD, IS REMOVING NOT HISTORIC FABRIC, BUT HISTORIC FABRIC POTENTIALLY FROM A CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURE.
SO LET ME ASK YOU THIS, BECAUSE THEY HAD TO USE WOOD 20 YEARS AGO, RIGHT? WE, WE, WE'VE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT ALLOWING NEW ADDITIONS TO USE CONTEMPORARY, RIGHT? AND EVERYBODY KIND OF SAID, YEAH, THAT SEEMS REASONABLE.
IS EVERYBODY STILL COMFORTABLE THAT NEW ADDITIONS CAN USE CONTEMPORARY MATERIALS? WELL, IT PUTS THEM ON A PARITY WITH INFILL, WHICH WAS A COMPLAINT PEOPLE HAD IN OUR MEETINGS.
I, AND I THINK WE ONLY EVER SAID UN TERTIARY, RIGHT? SURE.
AMONGST DISCUSSION THAT'S IMPORTANT TO, TO, YEAH.
I JUST WANTED TO, BECAUSE IT CAME UP, I THINK ELENA SAID, WELL, WHAT IF THEY WANT PUT A ON? WE SAID NO.
I THINK WE ALL KIND OF SAID, YEAH, THAT, THAT THAT SHOULD COULD WORK.
BUT NOW AS WE START TALKING ABOUT, EVERYBODY'S LIKE, WELL, YOU KNOW, MAYBE WE DON'T WANT, REMEMBER THE, WE DON 16 RATIONALE IS THAT THIS IS ANOTHER WAY TO DIFFERENTIATE THE NEW CONSTRUCTION.
[01:05:01]
BUT, YOU KNOW, THEN YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO SAY, OKAY, WE'RE GONNA BE LIVING WITH PARTY BOARD VINYL WINDOWS ON THE BACK OF A, OF A HISTORIC HOUSE.ON THE ADDITION TO THE BACK, WHICH BECOMES PART OF THE HOUSE, ESSENTIALLY.
HOW DIFFERENTIATED, NOT DIFFERENTIATED WELL, BUT WELL, DIFFERENT DIFFERENTIATION.
IN ADDITION TO THE OTHER DIFFERENTIATIONS.
SO, SO FOR WINDOWS, YOU'VE GOT WOOD WINDOWS, YOU'VE GOT VINYL WINDOWS, YOU'VE GOT COMPOSITE MATERIALS.
BOTTOM CLAD, WHICH I I ALUMINUM WINDOW BECAUSE OF THE BOTTOM CRACKS.
UH, THE, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY WITH WOOD YOU CAN MAKE, YOU CAN REPLICATE ANY KIND OF WINDOW WITH THE COMPOSITE MATERIALS.
UM, IT'S POSSIBLE TO REPLICATE WINDOWS WITH SOMETHING LIKE A VINYL OR ALUMINUM CLAD THAT'S NOT POSSIBLE TO, TO REPLICATE A WINDOW OR EVEN MAKE THE WINDOW KIND OF, SORT OF LOOK LIKE WHAT'S ON THE PRIMARY STRUCTURE.
AND IN REVIEWING, REVIEWING WHAT, UM, FOLKS HAVE DONE WITH OTHER GUIDELINES, THERE ARE PLACES THAT SAY NO MODEL WINDOWS COMPOSITE OR WOOD.
SO THAT WOULD GIVE US, I MEAN, THAT WOULD GIVE US THE, THE ABILITY TO, TO KEEP THE BACK OF THE HOUSE FROM LOOKING LIKE, YOU KNOW, A DOUBLE WIDE THAT'S BEEN ADDED TO THE PRIMARY STRUCTURE.
SO ADDITIONS WOULD HAVE COMPOSITE WINDOWS.
WHAT ABOUT INFILL? UM, BUT NOW INFILLS, INFILL SIDING, WHY WE ALLOW INFILL IS WHATEVER IS WHATEVER, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER GETS CONVERTED MATERIALS ARE AVAILABLE.
BUT SO WHAT MAKES AN INFILL DIFFERENT THAN AN ADDITION OTHER THAN IT'S ON THE BACK OF A, OF A CONTRIBUTOR STRUCTURE? WELL, THAT'S, THAT'S THE WHOLE THING.
DO WE WANT TO KEEP, IF THERE'S AN ADDITION, DO WE WANT TO CARRY OVER THE ARCHITECTURAL FORM FROM THE PRIMARY STRUCTURE TO THE ADDITION? 6, 7, 6 WINDOWS? THAT'S THE PRIMARY STRUCTURE.
UH, DECIDING IF, IF WE GO PARTY BOARD, DO WE WANT THE, THE THIN THREE EIGHT INCH STUFF THEY DO MAKE CARDI BOARD NOW, UH, I, I CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAME OF IT, BUT IT'S, IT REPLICATES THE THICKER, UH, FAT BOARD.
SO IT DOESN'T LOOK EXACTLY THE SAME, BUT IT RIGHT.
ONE OF THAT PRESENTATION BRIEF THAT, OR MORE THAN ONE THAT TALKS ABOUT MAKING SURE THERE'S A DIFFERENTIATION BETWEEN THE ORIGINAL STRUCTURE AND THE ADDITION.
ALTHOUGH IF YOU LOOK AT A LOT OF OUR ADDITIONS, IT, IT LOOKS THE SAME.
YOU KNOW, THAT THEY, THE GOTTA LOOK FOR IT.
THE, THE, THE, THE, THE OUTSIDE, UM, SIDING IS ALMOST LINED UP.
IT, MOST OF 'EM, YOU CAN'T TELL THAT THEY'RE NOT ORIGINAL STRUCTURES.
IS THAT A BIG DEAL? I THINK IT LOOKS GOOD, BUT I KNOW THAT THERE IS SOME GUIDANCE THAT SAYS YOU SHOULD NOT TRY TO PERFECTLY MATCH.
YOU SHOULD HAVE SOME KIND OF A WAY OF DIFFERENTIATING ADDITIONS FROM MAIN STRUCTURES.
VERY FEW STRUCTURES ZONE, THE 600 BLOCK OF EAST FRONT STREET HAVEN'T HAD AN EDITION DOWN ON THE 26TH OR SOMETHING.
WHAT IS VISUALLY NOW? THERE HAVE BEEN VERY FEW INFILLS IN, IN THE TYPE WE LOCAL HISTORIC DISTRICT, EXCEPT A GOOD NUMBER IN, IN RIVERSIDE.
HAVE WE DESTROYED RIVERSIDE, UH, CHARACTER BY, IT'S ALREADY PRETTY FAR GONE.
YEAH'S A BIG HAVE STUFF, SO IT'S A LOT BIGGER THAN THAT.
IT'S GOT A BIG, IT'S LIKE VINYL WINDOWS, ALL THE THINGS THAT WE'VE JUST TALKED ABOUT.
THE HOUSE FOR THE PEPSI BUILDING.
BUT IT, IT IS RECOGNIZED AS A NEW, A NEW STRUCTURE THOUGH, RIGHT? NO, NO.
I'M SAYING, HAVE WE DESTROYED THE SPECIAL CHARACTER OF THE HISTORIC DISTRICT? NO, I DON'T THINK SO.
MY OPINION ANYWAY, UM, I WAS JUST, JUST THE DEVIL'S
[01:10:01]
ADVOCATE ON, ON THIS ADDITION VERSUS INFILL.IS THERE A DIFFERENCE IF WE'RE SAYING ANY NEW CONSTRUCTION ON INFILL, YOU CAN USE MATERIALS, BUT NEW CONSTRUCTION ON THE BACK OF THE CONTRIBUTING.
YOU HAVE TO USE TRADITIONAL MATERIALS, EVEN THOUGH WE SAID THAT IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO MATCH, IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE OF A STYLE THAT, THAT WELL, THAT COMPLIMENTS OR WHATEVER THE TERM IS THAT MOLLY DISPUTE.
SO IN ADDITION, ON THE SIDE IS OKAY, BUT NOT ON THE NO, BUT I THINK THAT'S THE, SO I MEAN, I THINK YOU HAVE TO SAY ADDITIONS ARE THE SAME AS INFILL.
THAT'S A CLEAR WAY TO ME TO EXPLAIN IT.
IF IT'S CONTRIBUTING, WHETHER IT'S NOT CONTRIBUTING.
IF IT'S NON CONTRIBUTING BUILDING, YOU CAN USE CONTEMPORARY MATERIALS.
I DON'T THINK THAT'S AN ISSUE.
BUT IT'S AN, BUT NOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AN ADDITION TO A CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURE.
CAN YOU USE CONTEMPORARY MATERIALS? AND FROM A PUBLIC STANDPOINT, I THINK THE PERCEPTION IS, OH, MY HARDY BOARD'S GONNA BE CHEAPER TO MAINTAIN ALL THESE THINGS.
IT MAY NOT BE IN RICHARD'S 200 YEAR OLD WINDOWS AND ALL THESE THINGS THAT WE CAN POINT OUT.
WE CAN GIVE THEM A LOT OF INFORMATION ABOUT WINDOWS AND MATERIALS.
HARD BOARD CAN GET DESTROYED BY WATER JUST AS WELL AS WE, BUT BB OWNERS DON'T CARE ABOUT THAT.
WELL,
EVERY, EVERY, YOU KNOW, PUT THESE VINYL WINDOWS IN, YOU'LL ENERGY BE, WILL BE CUT IN HALF.
AND MY POINT IS THAT THE WINDOW SAVES 40% ABOVE THE WALL, BUT THERE'S NO INFORMATION WHATSOEVER.
THERE, THERE STUDIES, STUDIES HAVE, HAVE SHOWN UP IN THE PAST, PROBABLY FIVE OR 10 YEARS, THAT THAT SHOW THAT TAKING A HISTORIC HOUSE AND REPLACING THE WINDOWS, YOU'RE NOT GONNA GET, ESPECIALLY IF THE STORM 40%, IF YOU HAVE A STORM WINDOW AND REGULAR PICKED UP WOOD WITH, WITH PROPER GLAZING, IT'S SO MUCH BETTER.
YOU LOSE A MAJORITY OF THE HEAT THROUGH THE, THROUGH THE ROOF AND, AND THROUGH THE FLOOR.
BUT, BUT IF YOU TELL A, IF, IF A WINDOW SALES PERSON TELLS A HOMEOWNER, YOU KNOW, LOOK AT HOW OLD THESE WINDOWS ARE.
I CAN REPLACE THESE, THE STATE OF THE ART FOR ONLY $3,000 A WINDOW, AND YOU'RE GONNA GET ALL KIND OF ENERGY SAVINGS.
I THINK THEY'D BE MORE APT TO LISTENING TO THAT GUY THAN THEY ARE TO YOU.
AND RICHARD'S STUDY OF, OF REPAIR WOODEN WINDOWS.
WELL, MATT'S STORY, THERE WAS SHARING EARLIER ABOUT THE WINDOWS.
MATT WENT AND LOOKED AT ALL THE WINDOWS AND THEY WERE SALABLE.
I MEAN, SOME OF 'EM WERE JUST, YOU COULD EXPLAIN THE CONDITION BETTER, BUT, AND, AND THEY, THEY HAD A CONTRACT OUTSIDE TO FIX 'EM, AN EXPERT AT THAT.
AND THEY WOULD'VE PROBABLY SPENT LESS MONEY REPAIRING THAN THEY WOULD'VE REPLACING.
AND THEY WOULDN'T HAVE THE WAVY GLASS, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE THE CHARACTER.
YOU KNOW, AND WE HAVE SOME EXCELLENT VIDEOS THAT SHOW WHY.
YOU CAN PROVIDE ALL KINDS, BUT IT'S NOT, YOU CAN'T GO TO LOWE'S AND SAY, I'LL TAKE 20 OF THESE THINGS AND YOU'LL BE HERE A MONTH TO PUT 'EM IN.
SO I GUESS, I GUESS DOES THAT, ARE WE STANDING THOUGH, IF, IF WE THINK WOOD IS THE, THE BETTER OPTION, ARE WE BETTER OFF SAYING, YEAH, WE'RE STICKING WITH TRADITIONAL MATERIALS ON NEW ADDITIONS FOR, FOR, FOR IN ADDITION, I THINK THE WAY THAT WE COULD DO THIS IS, IS DEFINE THE CON THE AVAILABLE CONTEMPORARY MATERIALS THAT, THAT COMPLIMENT THE EXISTING PRIMARY STRUCTURE.
I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE HARDY BOARD IF IT COMPLIMENTS THE PRIMARY STRUCTURE.
UH, THAT'S, THAT'S WHY I SAYS THE THIN THREE EIGHT INCH STUFF VERSUS THE, YOU KNOW, THE THICKER HARDY BOARD, THAT, THAT ACTUALLY HAS THE DIMENSIONS AND THE TEXTURE AND PROFILE OF REAL FLAT BOARD.
I THINK THOSE ARE 2D TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
I THINK, UM, WINDOWS, I THINK A, A COMPOSITE, A COMPOSITE MATERIAL VERSUS VINYL OR ALUMINUM CLAD, IT'S, IT'S CERTAINLY GONNA COMPLIMENT
[01:15:01]
THE STRUCTURE, THE PRIMARY STRUCTURE MORE THAN, YOU KNOW, VINYL OR, OR ALUMINUM WINDOWS.NOW, PRESERVATION BRIEF 16 DOES NOT SAY ALLOW VINYL WINDOWS.
IT SAYS CONSIDER CONTEMPORARY MATERIALS.
SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING WE COULD DEFINE FOR THIS ADDITIONS TO HISTORIC STRUCTURES A DIFFERENT PARAMETER THAN WE HAD FOR PURE CONSTRUCTION.
WELL, I, I, I SEE INFIELD CONSTRUCTION AS SOMETHING ELSE.
YOU KNOW, WE WANT, WE WANT THE INFIELD CONSTRUCTION TO, YOU KNOW, TO NOT DIMINISH WHAT'S AROUND IT IN ADDITION TO SOMETHING DIFFERENT BECAUSE YOU'RE ADDING SOMETHING TO AN EXISTING CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURE AND EXTENDING THE ARCHITECTURAL DETAIL.
EVERYTHING ELSE, I, I AGREE WITH TIM AND I THINK THERE'S NOT A HISTORIC HOUSE IN THIS TOWN THAT COULD HAVE BEEN BUILT UNDER OUR BALANCE BECAUSE EVERY HISTORIC HOUSE WAS MODERN AND NEW AND DIFFERENT, AND USED DIFFERENT MATERIALS AND DIFFERENT STYLES AND DIFFERENT LOOKS AT THE TIME.
AND THAT'S, I DON'T SEE ANYTHING WRONG WITH BUILDING A COMPLETELY TRADIT, COMPLETELY CONTEMPORARY HOUSE ON, ON THE APPROPRIATE LOT.
BUT WE HAVE TO KEEP THE OTHER STUFF THAT WE'VE GOT.
AND I THINK THIS IS WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.
SO, SO ALLOWING SPECIFIC TEMPORARY MATERIALS TO CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURE OR MAYBE A CLOSET WINDOW EMULATING WOOD WINDOWS AS OPPOSED TO LOOKING LIKE A VINYL WINDOW.
UH, THE, THE, ONE OF THE, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I ALWAYS, I ALWAYS THINK OF, AND, UH, IF, IF YOU GO, IF YOU GO DOWN, UM, UM, PAST YOUR STREET, AND THEN RICHARD, RICHARD AND MOLLY ARE FAMILIAR WITH, WITH WHAT'S CALLED THE SIX SISTERS.
THOSE ARE HISTORIC HOUSES THAT WERE BUILT IN THE TWENTIES.
BUT I MEAN, IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT'S BEEN DONE TO THOSE, YES, THEY HAVE VINYL SIDING, BUT THEY ALSO HAVE VINYL WINDOWS.
AND IT JUST, I MEAN, IT DOESN'T LOOK RIGHT.
THERE'S A HOUSE ON NORTH CRAVEN STREET RIGHT BESIDE LOOK, MALLARD PARK, AND THERE IT IS ACTUALLY SISTER HOUSES THAT SIT THERE, THE HOUSE RIGHT BESIDE MARK MALLARD PARK HAD THE, HAD WOOD WINDOWS REPLACED WITH BOTTLE WINDOWS.
IT JUST DOES NOT, IT JUST DOES NOT REFLECT, YOU KNOW, WHAT THE STRUCTURE IS.
AND THAT'S THE WHOLE THING WITH AN ADDITION.
YOU WANT, UH, TO ME YOU WANT THE ADDITION TO REFLECT WHAT THE PRIMARY STRUCTURE IS.
I DON'T THINK YOU CAN GET THERE WITH VINYL WINDOWS.
AND, AND I'M NOT DISAGREEING WITH YOU ON THAT IS THOUGH, IS I THINK WHAT WE HEARD IN THE CHARETTES FROM THE PUBLIC IS, SO IF I BUILD A NEW HOUSE, AN INFILL HOUSE, I CAN USE ALL THE CONTEMPORARY MATERIALS MM-HMM
BUT IF I'M ADDING ON THE BACK OF MY HOUSE AND PUTTING IN A NEW KITCHEN OR WHATEVER ELSE, I'VE GOTTA USE A WHOLE DIFFERENT PALLET OF, OF MATERIALS THAT MAKES IT MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE AND CUMBERSOME, I'D BE BETTER OFF PUTTING A, DOING SOMETHING ELSE THAN, THAN ADDING ON TO THIS HOUSE.
SELL THE HOUSE AND BUY A VACANT LOT.
BUT THAT'S SOMETHING THAT, THAT, THAT WE DID HEAR FROM THE PUBLIC AND SOMETHING THAT, THAT, I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THAT IF WE ARE GONNA SAY, YEAH, WE HEAR YOU, BUT OUR, OUR, OUR CONTEMPORARY MATERIALS ARE ONLY GONNA BE USED FOR NEW STRUCTURES.
ANYTHING THAT'S ATTACHED TO A TO A CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURE HAS A DIFFERENT SET OF, OF, OF CRITERIA.
SO YOU REALLY HAVE THREE SETS OF CRITERIA, IF YOU WILL.
THE, THE, THE, THE, THE MAIN CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURE, ESPECIALLY THE, THE, THE PRIMARY A VC, SOME PERHAPS SOME MINOR LEEWAY ON ADDITIONS IN THE TERTIARY FOR CONTROLLING STRUCTURES, AND THEN ALL NEW CONTEMPORARY FOR INFILLS.
BUT LET'S, LET'S GET BACK TO WHAT IS OKAY FOR THE, THE REAR SIDING SIDINGS THAT WE TALKED ABOUT MIGHT BE SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT.
UHHUH
WELL, THE BACK OF AN ADDITION, WELL, I THINK WE SHOULD BE KIND OF ALONG THE SAME LINES, IS THE CONTEMPORARY CONTEMPORARY MATERIALS SHOULD REFLECT THE MASS FORM,
[01:20:01]
SCALE, TEXTURE, UH, PROFILE OF THE ORIGINAL OF THE, OF THE PRIMARY STRUCTURE.AND I, I, I, I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ALLOWING CONTEMPORARY MATERIALS, BUT AGAIN, THE, THE WHOLE, THE WHOLE THING IS TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT THE NEW ADDITION REFLECTS THE PRIMARY STRUCTURE AS, AS OPPOSED TO BEING SOMETHING JUST, YOU KNOW, COMPLETELY FAKE AND, AND ARBITRARY.
THAT THAT'S WHAT WE, THAT'S WHAT, TO ME, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO GET TO.
I'M NOT SURE FAITH AND HARVARD ARBITRARY ARE LIKE FOUR SEASONS FROM AT THE BACK OF A HOUSE.
THAT WOULDN'T HAVE LOOKED VERY, IT WOULDN'T BE FITTING WITH THAT ORIGINAL STRUCTURE.
BUT IT IS A CONTEMPORARY LOOK.
AND IS IT BAD? IS IT GOOD? I, I'D SAY SOME LOOK AT THE HOUSE NEXT TO YOU THAT THE BACK ADDITION, THAT SUN ROOM BACK THERE MM-HMM
UNDER THAT HE COULD NOT BUILD BACK.
IT DOESN'T REALLY REFLECT THE CHARACTER OF THE ORIGINAL HOUSE.
OH, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BEST GUN YES.
HOUSE ON THE BACK THAT WAS BUILT IN 2000.
BUT, BUT THAT YOU WOULD, WOULD SAY THAT THAT ADDITION SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ALLOWED BECAUSE IT DOESN'T REALLY REFLECT THE CHARACTER OF THE, OF THE MAIN STRUCTURE.
I WOULD SAY THE ADDITION SHOULD BE, SHOULD HAVE BEEN ALLOWED, BUT IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN A DIFFERENT, A, A BIT OF A DIFFERENT FORM.
UH, THE, THE ONE THAT I THINK OF IS THE, UM, THE RIGS BUILDING ON CRAVEN STREET.
IF YOU GO AROUND TO THE BACK, UH, THEY ADDED AN ADDITION ON THE BACK.
AND IT'S CLEARLY A BIG, A DIFFERENT, IT IS A CONTEMPORARY STRUCTURE.
BUT I THOUGHT THAT WAS, THAT WAS DONE BECAUSE IT COMPLIMENTS THE PRIMARY BRICK STRUCTURE.
AND I THINK, I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER, JIM, YOU REMEMBER, UH, I WANT TO SAY THEY HAD THAT THERE'S, UH, CONTEMPORARY WINDOWS AND MAYBE EVEN CONTEMPORARY SIDING.
THEY HAD THE WINDOWS, NEW WINDOWS BUILT BECAUSE THE OLD WINDOWS WERE DESTROYED.
BUT ON, ON THE BACK, ON THE ADDITION, THE, THE ADDITION DOES HAVE, I THINK, METAL AROUND THAT.
UM, WHAT DO YOU WANNA CALL IT? SUNROOM? YEAH.
HAS YOUR THEN NO SLIDERS THEN SLIDERS? WHAT DO YOU MEAN? SLIDERS? UH, SLIDING DOORS? NO, NO, NO.
WE'VE DONE FRENCH DOORS, WE'VE DONE IT IN RIVERSIDE.
AGAIN, I DON'T, I DON'T, YOU KNOW.
WELL THEN YOU GET IN, IF YOU PROHIBIT THAT YOU'RE GETTING INTO DOWN THE, WELL, CREATING A NON AND CONTRIBUTING AND CREATING SOMETHING THAT'S IN VIOLATION, THAT WOULD BE A NON-CONFORMING STRUCTURE.
WELL, AND WE, WE TEND NOT TO GET, WE TEND NOT TO GET DOWN TO DETAILS LIKE THAT IN A SENSE.
NOW YOU CAN'T HAVE FRENCH DOORS NOW YOU CAN'T HAVE A SLIDING DOOR.
THAT DECISION IS MADE WITH WHAT'S PUT IN FRONT OF US.
BUT WE'RE TRYING TO DO HERE WITH THE GUIDELINES IS, IS IS TRYING TO DRAW A BOX AROUND THE, THE GUIDANCE OR THE OUTCOMES THAT WE'RE TRYING TO GET TO.
AND IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT NECESSARILY THAT LEVEL OF SPECIFICS OF NO, YOU CAN'T HAVE FRENCH DOORS.
BUT I THINK IT, BECAUSE THESE ARE STANDARDS NOW, NOT GUIDELINES.
YOU HAVE TO KIND OF SAY WHAT IS WITHIN THE REALM OF ALLOWABLE ALLOWABLE AND WHAT'S NOT ALLOWABLE.
YOU CAN'T SAY, WELL, WE ENCOURAGE YOU TO DO THIS, OR WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT.
I THINK AS STANDARDS, YOU HAVE TO SAY, THIS IS ACCEPTABLE AND THIS ISN'T.
BUT WHAT ABOUT, I MEAN, I, I, I FUNDAMENTALLY DISAGREE WITH THAT.
SCOTT HAS SAID THAT, THAT THE WAY THAT WE GET TO A DECISION HAS NOT CHANGED.
THE STATE STATUTES HAVE NOT CHANGED ON THAT.
BECAUSE THE ONLY STANDARD THAT WE HAVE TO MEET IS, IS IT NOT INCONGRUOUS WITH THE SPECIAL CHARACTER OF THE HISTORIC DISTRICT THAT'S STILL IN THE STATE STATUTES? THAT'S STILL IN THE CITY ORDINANCES.
AND WHAT THE STANDARDS, THE GUIDELINES, RAT IN THE CAGE, WHATEVER YOU
[01:25:01]
WANT TO CALL 'EM, WE STILL USE THOSE AS GUIDANCE, AS DEFINING THE OUTCOMES AND LOOKING AT THE WHOLE OF GETTING TO THE DECISION AS TO WHETHER THIS THING MEETS ENOUGH OF THE STANDARDS, GUIDELINES, DEAD RATS IN A CAGE.SO THAT WE CAN SAY THAT YES, THIS IS NOT INCONGRUOUS WITH A SPECIAL CHARACTER OF HIS THERE THAT NOT KNOW WE GOT THIS CONVERSATION.
BUT YOU CAN'T SAY ON ONE HAND, THE ONLY THING THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT IS MAKING SURE IT DOESN'T AFFECT A SPECIAL, UH, THE, THE, THE FABRIC OF OUR COMMUNITY.
BUT HERE'S A BUNCH OF STANDARDS THAT YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW TOO.
I MEAN, SO IF, IF, IF THAT'S GONNA BE THE CASE THAT IT'S JUST PRESERVING THE, THE, THE SPECIAL NATURE OF THE HISTORIC DISTRICT, YOU DON'T NEED ALL OF THIS.
YOU CAN JUST SAY, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DOING.
AND I DON'T, AND I THINK SCOTT WOULD HAVE A HEART ATTACK IF HE SAID, THAT'S OUR NEW STANDARD.
IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IN ADDITION TO HISTORIC STRUCTURE AND THEY WANT A SLIDING GLASS DOOR WITH METAL FRAME, THERE'S NOTHING THAT PROHIBITS THAT.
WELL, AND THEN YOU GET INTO, YOU GET INTO THE FACT THAT THIS IS A QUASI-JUDICIAL HEARING BASED OFF OF EVIDENCE, WHICH YOU'RE USING TO MAKE A DETERMINATION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT IT'S FITTING OR IT'S NOT.
WELL, WHAT IS SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN POINT TO THAT SAYS THIS IS IN FACT CONGRUOUS OR INCONGRUOUS? BECAUSE HAVING SOMETHING THAT COMPLIMENTS IS SUBJECTIVE.
SO HOW CAN YOU MAKE A DECISION THAT'S SUBJECTIVE BASED OFF OF FACTS AND EVIDENCE? WELL, THE, IT'S QUASI-JUDICIAL BECAUSE WE DO MAKE A DECISION.
WE, IF IT WAS SIMPLY ROLL THROUGH THE 26 STANDARDS, WE WOULDN'T NEED A COMMISSION.
AND, AND, AND, AND I AGREE WITH, I I, I THINK SADLY ENOUGH, I'M SITTING NEXT TO RICHARD AND I'M, I'M MUCH MORE ALIGNED WITH KEEPING AT THE, AS AS MUCH PRESERVING AS MUCH.
BUT THAT I RECOGNIZE THAT AS A, AS A, AS A GROWING CITY, I DON'T KNOW THAT YOU CAN NOT MAKE SOME INCREMENTAL CHANGES ON SOME OF THESE THINGS.
LIKE ADDITIONS, LIKE PUTTING, YEAH, SLIDING DOOR IS METAL, BUT IT'S ALUMINUM THAT WAS NOT AROUND.
IT'S, IT'S ALUMINUM'S BEEN AROUND A LONG TIME.
BUT THE STYLE OF A SLIDING GLASS DOOR WITH ALL GLASS AND, AND THE FRAME AROUND IT IS CERTAINLY NOTHING THAT, THAT WAS AROUND 50 YEARS AGO, 80 YEARS AGO.
BUT WE WANT TO ALSO REFLECT ARCHITECTURAL STYLES AT THE TIME.
AND THAT'S KIND OF MY, THAT'S KIND OF MY, MY DILEMMA.
IT SOUNDS LIKE WE HAD AN EASY TO APPLY IDEA OF TREATING TERTIARY ADDITIONS LIKE INFILL DEVELOPMENT.
WHAT I'M HEARING FROM THE SIX OF YOU HERE TODAY IS THAT MAYBE THAT'S NOT THE CASE ANYMORE.
WE WANT VERY, WE'RE WILLING TO ALLOW MORE MATERIALS, BUT NOT ALL THE MODERN MATERIALS.
AND WE NEED TO ACTUALLY MAKE A LIST OF WHAT WE FEEL LIKE'S JUST APPROPRIATE ENOUGH FOR THESE RARE ADDITIONS.
IS THAT CORRECT? I'M NOT SURE WHAT I'M SAYING.
WHAT? I'M NOT SURE WHAT I'M SAYING.
IT'S A VERY, THAT'S VERY, I THINK IT'S A VERY LIMITED DIFFERENCE BETWEEN, I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT, THE ADDITION AND THE NEW INFILL, IT'S REALLY JUST WINDOWS, RIGHT? IT'S REALLY JUST WINDOWS.
WHAT ABOUT THAT ADDITION TO A HISTORIC STRUCTURE? WE AREN'T WORRIED ABOUT THEM USING A COMPOSITE DOOR.
I THINK WE JUST LIST OUT THE THINGS THAT WE'RE WILLING TO ACCEPT WHEN THEY, THEY BRING YOU YOUR PROPOSAL.
BUT I THINK TIM SUGGESTED OR DON'T, I THINK TIM SUMMARIZED WHERE HE WAS COMFORTABLE PRETTY WELL.
WHAT ABOUT DON'T SORT OF LIST, DON'T ACCEPT A DON'T ACCEPT LIST.
YOU'RE GONNA SAY FRENCH DOOR SLIDING DOORS.
WE, I DON'T THINK WE'VE EVER HAD, I DON'T THINK WE DESCRIBE DOOR DOORS.
WE'VE NEVER HAD ARGUMENTS ABOUT THEY CAN'T DO THAT BACK DOOR THAT I KNOW OF.
YOU KNOW, IF SOMEBODY HAS A SLIDER, THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT.
THEY HAVE NICE PATIO, WE APPROVE IT, AND OUR FRENCH DOORS, WE APPROVE IT.
IF THEY JUST HAVE A STANDARD DOOR, WE APPROVE IT.
I REALLY LIKE TIM'S TABLE WHERE YOU HAVE THOSE DIFFERENT SITUATIONS AND CRITERIA.
AND MAYBE THAT'S ANOTHER APPROPRIATE THING TO DO FOR DOORS.
AND MAYBE AGAIN, FOR WINDOWS, I AGREE SPECIFICALLY.
BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE DOORS HAVE NOT BEEN A BIG ISSUE FOR
[01:30:01]
ANYBODY ON ADDITIONS TO HISTORIC STRUCTURES.WELL, YOU MIGHT ONLY HAVE ONE OR TWO TO HAVE BESIDE 10, 20, 30 WINDOWS.
DOES ANYBODY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PARTY BOARD THAT VISUALLY EMULATES WHAT'S ON THE HOUSE? NO.
SO I THINK WE'RE DOWN TO JUST THE WINDOWS.
SO, AND YOU PLUG YOUR WOULD'VE WITHOUT SCREEN ON ADDITION TO THE MAX, TO THE ORIGINAL ALREADY BOARD, THEN VISUALLY EMULATES.
SO THE OTHER PART THOUGH IS THEN, UH, GETTING IT TRIM IS THE WINDOW SILLS.
I DON'T KNOW IF THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.
'CAUSE OFTENTIMES THEN A MODERN WINDOW WILL HAVE NO SILL.
BUT, AND THERE AGAIN, THAT, THAT'S WHERE TRYING WITH AN ADDITION, TRYING TO, THEY'RE TRYING TO COME UP WITH COMPLIMENTARY ARCHITECTURAL FEATURES AND NOT EXACT RIGHT.
BUT COMPLIMENTARY ARCHITECTURAL FEATURES THAT THE PRIMARY HOUSE HAS WINDOWSILLS.
THEN FOR THE ADDITION, YOU SHOULD HAVE SOME SEMBLANCE OF A WINDOW SILL THAT IS, IS COMPLIMENTARY.
IF THEY HAVE WIDE TRIM BOARDS DO WIDE, IF THEY HAVE NARROW, YOU CAN, YEAH.
JUST, IT'S REALLY JUST EMULATING WHAT THEY HAVE.
THEN THE WINDOW WON'T LOOK SO NEW IF YOU HAVE A WIDER SILL AND RIGHT.
IT'LL JUST BE THE CASEMENT OF THE WINDOW.
SO, WELL, I THINK THAT COVERS IT, AT LEAST TO GET A DRAFT WRITTEN AND GET COMMENTS.
UM, THERE IS, THERE'S ONE ADDITIONAL ITEM, SORRY TO BRING UP.
AND THAT IS THE, UM, WE'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT 3.3 AND 3.4.
THERE IS A SKETCH, UM, FOR DESIGN.
UM, PAGE THREE DASH FOUR, THE ONE ABOUT PENETRATION.
AND, UM, IT'S SUPPOSED, NOW IT'S NOT REALLY, UH, ELUCIDATED IN THE TEXT UNFORTUNATELY, BUT, UM, IT HAS A NO AND A YES IN THE TWO DIFFERENT SCENARIOS.
AND THE NO IS OBVIOUSLY THOSE, UH, LARGE HORIZONTAL WINDOWS ON THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE, A SQUARE WINDOW AND A SLIDING GLASS DOOR ON THE FRONT OF THAT.
WAS A SINGLE DOOR AND SIX VERTICAL WINDOWS.
SO THAT WOULD BE OPPOSITE OF ANYTHING IN HISTORIC.
SO HOWEVER, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT INFILL, RIGHT? ESSENTIALLY BEING WHATEVER IT WANTS TO BE.
UM, WELL I'VE GOT NUMBER THREE.
WE DECIDED THAT I BELIEVE WE WERE GONNA HAVE A START DATE FOR CONDITIONS NOT REACH BACK.
I HAVE OFFERED EASIER TO USE CHART AND EXPLANATION FOR COMPONENTS.
TIM, DO FANTASTIC JOB ON THAT.
I KEEP THINKING IT'S, IT'S LIKE A PAMPHLET AS OPPOSED TO BEING PART OF THE GUIDELINES OR THE STANDARDS THAT WE'LL SEE.
DEPENDING ON WHAT THE DESIGNER COMES UP WITH FOR THE LOOK OF THE BOOK.
THAT'S ALL I HAD BEFORE OUR 0.4.
SHOULD RICK STAIN BE ALLOWED? AND I'LL LET MATT ANSWER WHETHER WADE IS COMING TO OUR MEETING WEDNESDAY, DO YOU KNOW? NO, HE IS COMING.
SO WADE FROM JOHNSON, DAVE JOHNSON, WHAT'S HIS LAST NAME? UH, UH, ROGERS ROGER.
HE'S COMING TO TELL US THE LATEST ON BRICK TREATMENTS, CEILINGS AND PAINTINGS AND CEILING PAINTING PAINT STAIN.
BECAUSE HE WAS NOT AWARE OF WHAT THAT YOUNG WOMAN DID.
SO THAT WAS NEW WITH HIM AS WELL.
SO HOPEFULLY HE EXPLORED AND NOW OF COURSE SHE DID THAT AND WROTE THAT IN JANUARY OR SO.
AND, AND IT WAS AN ONGOING APPLICATION FROM PROBABLY BEFORE WADE STARTED.
SO I DUNNO IF THAT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAT.
AND IT'S, IT'S NOT WIDELY DISPERSED.
I DON'T THINK ANYBODY ELSE KNOWS ABOUT IT.
UM, MATT, I MIGHT PUT IN HERE, SHOULD HPC CONTROLS EIGHT COLORS DOWNTOWN? NO
WELL, THE NEXT PERSON WILL CORRECT IT AND THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO SELL THEIR HOUSES FOR, I'VE HEARD A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY
[01:35:01]
THEY, THEY REALLY LIKE THE COLOR OF A NEW TACO PLACE.WE WOULDN'T HAVE ALLOWED THAT.
THE DOWNTOWN IS TOO STODGY AND FORMAL.
THEY DON'T LIKE THE KIOSK EITHER.
I I FIND IT TO BE REFRESH LOOKING.
WELL, THERE'S NO DISPUTE AND CASE IS THERE.
WHOLE NEW EMPLOYEES JUST TO DO THAT, TO RUN INTO AN ELECTED OFFICIAL.
AND HE SAID, ISN'T THE HBC GONNA LOOK AT COLORS? AND I SAID, I DON'T THINK SO, BUT I'LL THROW IT ON THE LIST TOO.
SO I THINK WE VOTED NO ON THAT ONE.
I'LL POINT OUT IF ANYBODY'S LISTENING THAT THEY ALREADY HAD PAINTED THAT BUILDING THAT WAS NOT NEW.
AND WE DO NOT WANT ANY NEWLY PAINTED BRICK OR ANY YES.
I MEAN, SHOW OF HANDS, IS ANYONE INTERESTED IN CONTROLLING COLORS DOWNTOWN? THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT.
ALTHOUGH, YOU KNOW, EVEN EVEN THE GRAPH AND THIS, THE GRAPHICS, EVEN THE GRAPHICS ON THE WINDOWS TO ME, LOOK, DON'T LOOK GRAY.
I THINK IT LOOKS, IT LOOKS KIND.
MAYBE IT FITS A, THIS IS GRAY.
SLAP A HIGHLIGHT ON COLOR SOMEWHERE JUST TO CALL ATTENTION TO.
WE ALL DECIDED I LOVE THIS BOARD.
WE DIDN'T WANT TO RECOMMEND THAT.
BUT YOU KNOW, THEY CAN OPEN THAT AMONGST THEMSELVES WHEN IT GETS TO 'EM.
IF THEY'D LIKE, THEY CAN DECIDE.
BUT I DON'T THINK THERE'S AN APPETITE IN MAKING A CHANGE TO DO THAT HOLISTICALLY.
AND I'M NOT SEEING ONE AMONGST THIS BOARD.
NEXT ONE IS CONTEMPORARY MATERIAL FOR DECK FLOORING ON ADDITIONS.
AND THERE I GET INTO AS WELL, TERTIARY DECKS ON CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURES AND NON-CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURES.
DO WE STILL CARE ABOUT THE DECK MATERIAL? IF IT'S NOT, THE DECK IS NOT EVEN HISTORIC.
SO WHY ARE WE WORRIED ABOUT IT? WELL, YEAH, I MEAN IMMATURE.
I, I I AGREE WITH YOU, BUT THE MATERIAL, BUT SUPPOSE IT'S A HISTORIC PORCH ON THE BACK OF THE HOUSE.
HIS AO HOUSE I BROUGHT OVER THE HOUSE.
OH, THAT'S NOT SUPPOSE A THAT'S PORCH FLOOR.
YEAH, IT WOULD BE BETTER TO SAY PORCH FLOOR.
DO YOU MEAN PORCH FLOORING OR DO YOU MEAN DECK FLOORING? I'M, I'M SAYING DECK, BUT PORCH, WE DON'T WANT PORCH FLOORING CHANGED.
SEE, BECAUSE, UH, DECKS ARE REQUIRED TO BE STRUCTURALLY SEPARATED FROM THE STRUCTURE.
SO TECHNICALLY IT'S NOT ATTACHED TO THE STRUCTURE.
SO YOU COULD, THE WAY I'VE BEEN DOING IT IS THAT YOU CAN DO WHATEVER, WHATEVER MATERIAL YOU WANT ON THE DECK DECK.
SO DECK CAN FIND THE PORCH FLOOR THAT THE RIGHT, SO THEY'RE ATTACHED BACK TO THE PORCH FLOOR.
BUT A NEW HOUSE CAN BUILD AND A NEW ADDITION COULD USE UM, YES.
A NEW INFILL AND CONTEMPORARY.
SO, SO A NEW ADDITION THAT INCLUDES SAY A NEW PORCH, WHICH DECKS CAN BE ATTACHED.
THEY'RE JUST ATTACHED IN A DIFFERENT METHOD.
BUT WE REQUIRE THEM TO BE, WE REQUIRE THEM TO BE SEPARATED, STRUCTURALLY SEPARATED.
REMOVE THE BUILDING CODE SAYS IT'S X ITS OWN STRUCTURE.
I THINK THE ANSWER IS YES, JIM.
AND A, A BIG TOPIC THAT WE REALLY WON'T SETTLE TODAY.
BUT WAIT, I WANNA GO BACK TO, UH, SURE.
UM, WHAT WAS MY POINT? NEWPORT EXPLORERS.
SO, SO WE HAD SOME CONFUSION BETWEEN TONGUE AND GROOVE AND NON TONGUE GROOVE.
DO WE, DO WE CARE? AS LONG AS IT'S AN ISSUE.
ONE IS A RIK, THE OTHER ONE IS NOT.
BUT WAS WE, WE ALLOWED ONE HOUSE TO DO, TO DO NON RIK BECAUSE WE, WE SAID IT RETAINED MOISTURE AND LET, LET THEM SEPARATE.
AND THEY SAY OPPOSITE OF THAT.
THAT'S WHY YOU NEED THE TIME TO MOVE.
UM, SO I JUST WANT KNOW, I WOULD CLARIFYING THAT AND THIS NEED GO AROUND BECAUSE THEN WE WON'T HAVE THAT COME UP AGAIN, YOU KNOW? RIGHT.
CAN WE USE NON TIME OF GROOVE? GOOD POINT.
I THINK YOU JUST CLARIFIED THIS TIME.
SO THAT'S WHAT, SO WHAT IS THE CALL, JEN? SO HOW WOULD YOU, HOW WOULD YOU INSTALL, INSTALL NON TON AND GROOVE FLOORING? YOU STILL HAVE TO DO THE INSIDE TALKING ABOUT CONTEMPORARY MATERIALS LIKE TREX FLOORING.
[01:40:01]
JUST WOOD.IF YOU LOOK AT 5 0 7 EAST FRONT, WE ALLOWED THEM TO PUT NONT TONGUE IN GROUP IN WITH THE CONCEPT BEING IT, IT STILL WOULD.
BUT IT, IT IS SIDE BY SIDE GIVING.
LIKE IT NAILS GAP IN BETWEEN SO THAT IT DRAINS BETTER.
SO YOU HAVE TO NAIL IT FROM THE TOP.
THAT'S THAT'S WHAT I'M, WHAT I'M THINKING.
I DON'T, I DON'T SEE HOW YOU WOULD INSTALL.
I DON'T SEE HOW YOU WOULD INSTALL NON-TOWING GROOVE WITHOUT NAILING IT ON THE TOP.
I THINK THE TONGUE GROOVE, YOU NAIL IT IN THE, IN THE GROOVE.
UM, THAT'S REALLY WHAT THE DIFFERENCE IS.
AND THE CORRECT TONGUE GROOVE AND NON-TIME GROOVE.
INSTALLATION OF TONGUE AND GROOVE LEAVES A GAP.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN? IT LEAVES A GAP? YOU LEAVE A GAP BETWEEN THE TWO BOARDS WITH TONGUE AND GROOVE TO ALLOW FOR EXTENSION.
UH, I'VE NEVER SEEN INSTALLED LIKE THAT, BUT OKAY.
SO IT'S ACTUALLY NOT INSTALLED LIKE THAT.
IT'S DRILLED NOT JUST AS DAMN HARD AND TIGHT AS YOU CAN GET IT.
'CAUSE THE IDEA IS YOU WANT TO, YOU WANT THE TONGUE AND GROOVE TIGHT SO THAT YOU DON'T GET WATER PENETRATION.
SO WHAT ARE WE SAYING THAT BOTH ARE OKAY OR, OR WE'RE NOT SAYING THAT.
I THINK THE QUESTION IS FOR, FOR YOU ARE RIGHT, NAILS ARE GONNA BE VISIBLE.
THE ONLY REFERENCE TO TONGUE, THE WORD TONGUE IN, UH, THE, THE CHART YOU SET, THE OTHER DOCUMENT IS ON CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURES.
IF IT IS NECESSARY TO REPLACE FRONT PORCH DECKING, USE APPROPRIATE TONGUE AND GROOVE BOARDS, THAT'S ONLY ON CONTRIBUTORS.
WHICH, WHICH WOULD BE AN R THAT SHOULD WE JUST CHANGE THAT TO, UM, WOOD PANEL FLOOR AND WOOD BOARDS? 'CAUSE ARE WE ALLOW THE OTHER KIND NOW? WELL THIS IS SAYING IF YOU'RE REPLACING FRONT PORCH DECKING, USE APPROPRIATE TIME AND GLUE.
WELL, WE, WE DID ACT THAT WAY LAST TIME.
SO I'M JUST WONDERING, YOU KNOW, ARE WE BEING CONSISTENT OR DO WE WANT ANY, ANY BOARDS OR JUST WOULD WOULD WOOD BOARDS.
WELL, SO, SO AGAIN, I THINK WE, I THINK WE HAVE THE OUTCOME THAT WE WANT.
UM, IF YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT THE HOUSE THERE ON EAST FRONT STREET, THEY MADE, THEY MADE A CASE FOR, FOR PUTTING IN NON TIMING GROOVE FOR A FEASIBILITY ISSUE.
WHICH IS MY NEXT WELL, IT HAD TO DO WITH FLOODING.
I MEAN THEY, THEY MAY, THEY MAY LEGITIMATE CASE, ANDY, YOU KNOW, THEY PRESENTED THE EVIDENCE FOR ME BECAUSE I THINK WE ENCOURAGED TONGUE AND GROOVE AND THAT WAS THE DISCUSSION.
THAT'S STOP MAKING PRESSURE TREATED TONGUE AND GROOVE.
JUST SAY, WE'LL LEAVE IT AS IT IS.
AND WE TALK ABOUT FEASIBILITY BECAUSE THAT GETS INTRODUCED BY PRESERVATION THREE 16 AND THEY HAVE SEVEN, I'M SORRY.
WAIT, WAIT, WHAT? WHAT THE CALL THERE? LEAVE IT AS IT IS.
AND LEAVE IT AS ON CONTRIBUTING.
WHY? SO IN EFFORT OF BEING THAT THE PLACE, SO ARE, ARE WE CONVINCED TONGUE AND GROOVE IS, EVEN THOUGH IT'S THERE NOW, IS THAT TRYING PAYMENT? WELL, UNLESS THEY MAKE A CASE FOR A DIFFERENT SOLUTION, WHAT DO THEY HAVE TO MAKE? WHY DO THEY HAVE TO MAKE A CASE THAT'S DONE? LIKE IT JUST BE EASIER.
WELL, WHAT DO, WHAT DO PEOPLE WANT TO DO? THAT'S NOT MY QUESTION IS WHERE, WHERE WE GOING? I THINK IT SHOULD ALWAYS BE TONGUE GROUP.
I THINK IT'S A BETTER LOOK, BUT YEAH.
ALL THE HIS EVERY HISTORIC FLOOR IS IT? YEAH.
UNLESS THERE'S A UNIQUE SITUATION RIGHT.
AND FEASIBILITY IS, I BELIEVE 5 0 7 WAS, WELL, IT GETS WET AND, AND IT DOESN'T DRAIN VERY WELL.
YOU CAN MAKE THAT CASE EVERY SINGLE HOUSE.
I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS A VERY GOOD ARGUMENT.
UM, THERE ARE EIGHT CASES WHERE THEY INTRODUCE FEASIBILITY AND PRESERVATION.
THREE 16 ON REPLACEMENT MATERIALS, UNAVAILABLE UNAVAILABILITY OF MATERIAL, NUMBER ONE.
NUMBER TWO IS SKILLED CRAFTSMEN NOT AVAILABLE.
DURABILITY OF ORIGINAL FOUR IS REPLACEMENT OF THE SECONDARY FEATURE.
[01:45:01]
SOMETHING THAT'S NOT THAT IMPORTANT TO THE VISUAL APPEARANCE, REPLACEMENT OF A MISSING FEATURE.I GUESS THAT WOULD'VE TO BE IN COMBINATION WITH SOMETHING ELSE.
REPLACEMENT OF A MISSING FEATURE.
NOW THAT'S, THAT'S A TOUGH ONE.
WE WOULD NOT OBJECT TO THAT ANYWAY.
AND THEN ECONOMIC FEASIBILITY IS A REAL TOUGH ONE.
UM, BECAUSE ECONOMIC, HOW DO, HOW DO YOU ENGAGE THAT? YEAH.
AND I, I THINK, I DON'T THINK SO.
AND THESE, THESE WERE ALWAYS RICH PEOPLE'S HOUSES AND THEY TEND TO BE RICH PEOPLE'S HOUSES NOW.
BUT THERE'S SOME REAL
AND AND THE WOMAN WHO CAME HERE ABOUT THE PORCH ON EAST FRONT STREET THAT HAD TURNED COLLINS.
SHE COULDN'T FIND ANYBODY IN, IN THE SECOND WHO CALLED SOMEBODY IN MANHATTAN.
I GAVE HER THE NAME OF A MAN WHO COULD DO IT.
AND SHE THEN SAID UNDER OATH THAT SHE HAD NOT BEEN ABLE TO FIND ANYBODY TO DO IT.
AND I CALLED HIM AND TALKED TO HIM AND HE SAID, NO, SHE NEVER CALLED HIM.
AND I THINK WE'RE GONNA GET THAT A LOT.
ECONOMIC FEASIBILITY IS REALLY TOUGH TO PROVE.
CAN YOU AFFORD IT OR CAN HE AFFORD IT? I MEAN THAT'S AND WHAT'S THAT DIFFERENTIAL? IF THE HOUSE IS WORTH $2 MILLION, IT'S DIFFERENT THAN IF IT'S A HOUSE.
SO LET'S, LET'S GROW BACK ECONOMIC.
IF YOU LOOK INTO THE, THE, UM, WHAT'D YOU CALL IT? THE, THE STUFF, WHAT'S THAT PUBLICATION CALLED AGAIN? PRESERVATION BRIEF.
IT'S NOT, CAN YOU AFFORD IT? CAN YOU NOT AFFORD IT? ECONOMIC FEASIBILITY HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH CHANGING THE USE OF THE PROPERTY IN, IN ORDER TO, UH, CREATE MORE OR LESS OR NOT ENOUGH INCOME, YOU KNOW, INCOME OR SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT OF THE WAY.
HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH BUYING THE THING.
IT'S ABOUT HOW MUCH, IF I COULD PUT THIS, I COULD RENT IT TO YOU.
I HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT IN, WELL, INADEQUATE DURABILITY OF MATERIAL.
WE DO HAVE CASES LIKE THAT WHERE THE BOARD IS GETTING WATER SPLASHED ON IT BECAUSE OF THE DESIGN OF THE HOUSE.
AND THEY REPLACED THE BOARD EVERY THREE YEARS FOREVER.
IF THEY CAN MAKE THAT ARGUMENT, I THINK THEY'D HAVE TO SOMEHOW PROVE IT.
AND ALL THESE HAVE TO BE EVIDENCE FROM THE APPLICANT.
WE CAN'T JUST SAY, OKAY, THAT'S GOOD TO GO.
THAT'S PRETTY FAIR REPLACEMENT OF A SECONDARY FEATURE.
I'M NOT SURE WHAT THAT YEAH, WELL IT'S MORE, IT'S NOT PROMINENT, IT'S NOT IMPORTANT TO THE APPEARANCE OF THE STRUCTURE, LET'S SAY OUT BACK MIGHT BE LESS IMPORTANT THAN OUT FRONT.
AND IT'S WHERE THEY'RE TRYING TO GET A REPLACEMENT MATERIAL TO EMULATE THE ORIGINAL.
ARE YOU AVAILABLE JUST USING THE TERM FEASIBILITY WITHOUT DEFINING IT WITH ALL THESE OTHER TERMS? OR DO YOU THINK YOU NEED SOME SPECIFICITY? WELL, ALL THE OTHER ONES IN TIM AND I LOOKED AT IT, THEY ALL TALK ABOUT TECHNICAL FEASIBILITY BY DEFINITION IS FINANCIAL.
WELL, I WOULD SAY IT'S TECHNICAL.
CAN IT BE DONE? THAT'S WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE HAS PUT IN THEIR, THEIR CHARTS, TECHNICAL FEASIBILITY.
THEY DON'T DEFINE IT THIS DEEPLY.
I SAID I I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY A BETTER APPROACH AND NOT TRY, BECAUSE I THINK THIS, THIS IS, AS YOU HAVE POINTED OUT, PRETTY HARD TO, TO, UH, VERY HARD.
NOW, IS THIS GOING TO COME FROM MATT'S INITIAL DISCUSSION WITH HIM AND GETTING INTO THE WEEDS ABOUT WHAT THEY'VE TRIED TO DO? WHERE IS IT? AND THEN YOU COME MAYBE WITH A RECOMMENDATION THAT DOES TOUCH ON THIS MM-HMM
BUT MAYBE FROM A CATEGORY IT'S TECHNICAL FEASIBILITY, BUT I THINK IT NEEDS TO COME FROM
I CANNOT, I CAN'T FIND ANYBODY TO DO IT.
WELL REALLY, REALLY WHAT RESOURCES DO WE HAVE PART, WE HAVE ARCHITECTS.
WE HAVE REALLY PRESERVATIONISTS, WE HAVE TIM, UH, I MEAN JOE HUNT IS GETTING THESE COLUMNS WITHOUT HAVING TO REPLACE THEM.
SO THERE RESOURCES, BUT TO SAY THE PERSON BRINGS IT, BUT IT HAS TO BE EVIDENCE COMING TO US, YOU WOULD'VE TO BE CONVINCED THAT THEY HAVE EVIDENCE THAT THEY CAN'T.
AND SO IN THE DESIGN REVIEW MEETING, YOU WOULD CALL 'EM OUT ON CORRECT.
[01:50:01]
OR THEY, AND THEN THEY HAVE A WEEK TO COME UP WITH THEIR EVIDENCE.WELL, HOPEFULLY BEFORE, YOU KNOW, YOU WOULD'VE LESS THE EVIDENCE.
WELL, SO INSTEAD OF, INSTEAD OF LOOKING AS AT IT AS, YOU KNOW, FEASIBILITY, I LOOK AT IT MORE AS, YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE THE CRITERIA FOR SUBSTITUTE MATERIALS, YOU KNOW, UNAVAILABILITY OF THE MATERIAL, UNAVAILABILITY, UNAVAILABILITY OF, YOU KNOW, ARTISANS OR, UM, DURABILITY OF ORIGINAL MATERIALS REPLACING THE SECONDARY FEATURES.
I MEAN, IT'S, IT IS THE SAME THING.
BUT I LOOK AT IT AS MORE, MORE OF CRITERIA RATHER THAN FEASIBILITY IN THE SENSE THAT, OKAY, YOU WANT TO DO THIS THING.
UM, YOU KNOW, WHAT, HOW DOES IT, HOW DOES IT FIT INTO THIS, INTO ALL THESE CRITERIA? WELL, WE DON'T NECESSARILY WANT TO LIST THE CRITERIA.
LIST THE CRITERIA IN ADVANCE IS JUST AS, AS THINGS WE COULD CONSIDER.
IS THAT DIFFERENT? WELL, I, I, I THINK IT IS.
IF YOU COULD, IF YOU, YOU KNOW, IF YOU WANT TO, YOU KNOW, THE ELKS BUILDING, IF, UH, DION WANTS TO PUT THE ELKS HEAD BACK ON THE BUILDING,
I THINK THERE'S PROBABLY ALSO SOMETHING TO BE SAID THAT IF YOU'RE, IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO EXPLICITLY SAY WHAT YOU WILL AND WON'T CONSIDER FROM PRESERVATION BRIEF 16, THAT YOU ALSO OPEN UP THE FLOOR TO THAT APPLICANT TO SAY, WELL, THIS IS WHAT'S RECOMMENDED IN PRESERVATION BRIEF 16.
SO NOW YOU HAVE TO MAKE A DECISION.
I CAN'T FINANCIALLY FEASIBILITY FEASIBLY DO THIS.
HOW, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO PROVE THEM WRONG? MM-HMM
SO I, I WOULD THINK THAT YOU WOULD PROBABLY WANT TO SPECIFY WHICH OF THOSE CONDITIONS YOU DO OR DON'T WANT.
BUT MOST OF THESE AREN'T A YES OR NO.
AND YOU CAN TALK A LITTLE BIT ON THE ECONOMIC SIDE.
IT'S NOT LIKE YOU CAN SAY, IS SOMEONE AVAILABLE? WELL, YEAH, THE GUY LIVES IN MANITOBA AND YOU FLEW 'EM IN HERE.
BUT IS, IS THAT FEASIBLE TO HAVE A GUY FROM MANITOBA COUNTY? UNLESS RICHARD KNOWS THE GUY LOCAL CAN DO IT.
WELL, WE WENT THROUGH THIS WITH, WITH UM, CITY.
UM, WHAT, WHAT'S IT, WHAT'S IT CALLED? THE ATHENS.
'CAUSE THEY WANTED TO PUT THE MEDALLIONS BACK BASED ON THE 1911 PHOTO, BUT THERE WAS NO WAY, I MEAN, THERE'S JUST NO WAY TO, TO PUT THOSE BACK.
UH, AND I THINK THEY MADE IT OUT OF FIBERGLASS.
THE CAR WOULD BE, THEY COULD NOT BE MADE, BUT YOU COULDN'T TOUCH IT.
YOU COULDN'T FEEL IT, YOU COULDN'T EVEN GET CLOSE TO IT.
AND IT WASN'T AT THE FIRST MEETING.
IT WAS A SUBSEQUENT MEETING WHERE THEY CAME BACK WITH THEIR ISSUES.
SO, I MEAN, THERE IS GOOD TO HAVE SOMETHING THERE.
'CAUSE ABSENT SOMETHING LIKE THAT, YOU COULD SAY, WELL, YOU CAN SEE IT.
SO IT HAS TO BE THE RIGHT MATERIAL.
SO YOU NEED SOMETHING TO BE ABLE TO YEAH.
WE SAY IN THE STANDARDS THAT WE ALSO CONSIDER PRESERVATION BRIEFS.
SO ANYBODY COULD ALWAYS GO TO A PRESERVATION BRIEF AND GIVE US EVIDENCE.
UM, AND I THINK IN THE, IN THE PAST WE'VE, WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO COME UP WITH, YOU KNOW, A REASONABLE, FEASIBLE, WHATEVER WORD YOU WANT TO USE, UH, AGREEMENT ON, ON THINGS LIKE THIS.
SO RIGHT NOW WE HAVE THE, UH, ELKS BUILDING HAS THAT SCAFFOLDING AND THE PLYWOOD ALL AROUND IT.
'CAUSE OF THE MISSING THIS, UH, STONE WORK THAT'S FALLING OFF OF THERE.
I THINK IT'S THESE PIECES ACROSS HERE.
NOW CERTAINLY YOU HAVE A TON OF OTHER STONE WORK UP THERE, SO YOU KNOW, IF YOU PUT A PIECE OF PLASTIC UP THERE, YOU'RE GONNA NOTICE.
BUT, BUT THERE ARE OTHER MATERIALS.
WHAT'S THAT? YOU COULD PUT THAT, THAT, THAT THE, THE FAKE ROCK.
SO MATT, IS THIS OR WRITTEN MATT OR RICHARD? IS, IS THIS LIMESTONE OR IS THIS PRECAST STUFF THAT WAS AVAILABLE IN 1911? I'M MAKING SURE THAT THAT IS SOME KIND OF COMPOSITE THAT OKAY.
MAYBE TERRACOTTA LOOKING AT THE CAPITALS AND MAYBE THAT KEYSTONE.
UM, THAT'S PROBABLY TERRACOTTA.
[01:55:02]
SO SINCE TO SELF SUBJECT, BUT SINCE DEON'S ANNOUNCED IS NOT GONNA BE WORKING ON THIS FOR A WHILE, ARE WE LEAVING ALL THAT SCAFFOLDING AND SIDEWALK UP PROTECT THE PUBLIC? I, I DOUBT IT.WELL, ISN'T IT UP TO KEEP THE PEOPLE STANDING UNDER? IT WAS ACTUALLY VERY FAST SHUT DOWN SINCE HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY ACTIVE PERMITS THAT HE'S NOT DOING ANYTHING THE CITY WANTS.
LET'S SAY HE FOUND A CA PRECAST THAT WAS THAT SIZE, BUT IT WASN'T EXACTLY THAT DESIGN.
I ASSUME WE'D BE OKAY IF HE WOULD REPLACE ALL THREE OF 'EM OR WHATEVER.
I MEAN, WE'RE NOT SAYING IT'S GOTTA LOOK EXACTLY LIKE THAT.
SO AGAIN, FEASIBILITY GETS INTO THERE.
I THINK I I WE NEED SOME KIND OF A COMPANY THAT THEY CAN HANG THEIR HAT ON AND, AND COME IN AND GIVE 'EM AN OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE THEIR
IT'S INCUMBENT THE WORD MASTER.
IT'S INCUMBENT UPON THEM TO MAKE THE ARGUMENT.
NOT FOR US TO GIVE THEM SOMETHING TO, RIGHT.
AND THE BIGGER PRESSURE QUARRIES IN PENNSYLVANIA HAVE BEEN EXHAUSTED.
YOU CAN'T GET KING PRESSURE NORMAL ANYMORE.
BUT BY AND LARGE YOU CAN GET WHAT YOU NEED.
I'M NOT SAYING GIVE, HAVE THE TERM FEASIBILITY SOMEWHERE IN THERE TO GIVE THEM.
SO IT'S NOT AN ABSOLUTE, YOU CAN'T DO IT.
UM, I THINK WE CAN WRITE THIS PARTICULAR SENTENCE WITH AN INTENT.
WE RECOGNIZE CERTAIN MATERIALS THAT ARE FEATURES ON BUILDINGS ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE.
IN THIS INSTANCE WHEN A PROMINENT FEATURE OR SOMETHING IT, THIS IS WHERE WORK ON THE WORDS, THEN YOU PR YOU, YOU KNOW, HERE'S WHAT YOU DO PRESENT TO US WHETHER OR NOT THAT'S APPROPRIATE.
YOU GOTTA BE CAREFUL THAT IT'S SOMETHING THAT THEY CAN'T GRAB ONTO.
AND JUST PRE TO US ALL THE TIME, IT'S GOTTA CONVEY.
LIKE THIS IS NOT FOR A DOOR, THIS IS FOR A PROMINENT FEATURE.
MOST OF THIS STUFF CAN BE DONE NOW ECONOMICALLY.
IS IT, OH IS IT EXPENSIVE? YEAH.
THIS IS A BUILDING THAT REALLY IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE MAJOR EXCEPTIONS DOWNTOWN.
THAT GOT A LOT OF FRILL TO IT.
THAT'S GONNA BE HARD TO GET IT DONE AND GET IT DONE.
BUT WHERE DID MBF GET THAT STONE? THAT'S ON SEA HALL.
SO 6.1 AND 5.4 BOTH HAVE MENTIONS OF HIGH PRESSURE PAINT, COATING PAINT OR COATINGS REMOVAL.
JUST WE, WE DO NEED TO CLARIFY THAT HAND TOOLS OR MECHANICAL TOOLS ARE PROMOTED THAT WE BEAT THAT TO DEATH A YEAR AGO WOULD JUST MEAN, ALTHOUGH THE MAYOR WILL OBJECT, BUT WE DO MEAN, UM, NO SANDBLASTING BE BLASTING, ET CETERA.
DO WE NEED TO CALL IT MECHANICAL HAND TOOLS? YEAH.
MAKE A LITTLE, A LITTLE MORE, YOU KNOW, A LITTLE TIGHTER.
POWER WELL HAND TOOLS OR OR MECHANICAL HAND POWER HANDLE HAND SANDERS.
JESSE, DO WE, DO WE HAVE TO REVISIT WHAT, WHAT THIS IS POWER, POWER, MECHANICAL HAND TOOLS, POWER HAND.
SO ANYBODY WHO WANTS TO GO OUT WITH A DISC GRINDER CAN DO THAT.
I DON'T KNOW, I DON'T KNOW THE, ALL THE INS AND OUTS OF WHAT PEOPLE MIGHT BE ABLE TO COME UP WITH, BUT SOME LIMITATION THAT'S NOT, WELL GIVE SOME THOUGHT TO IT.
AND GET, GET A, UH, WHAT ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT, JOHN? WELL, JUST SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO, YOU KNOW, COULD EASILY, WELL IF YOU THINK OF LIKE FLOOR SANDER, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING WITH A FLOOR SANDER.
THERE'S STUFF OUT THERE THAT THEY COULD BE USING YEAH.
TO TRY AND DO WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
AND UNLESS YOU REALLY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING, YOU'RE GONNA WRECK STUFF.
YOU KNOW, YOU CAN GO DOWN TO LOWS RENT AND JUST BUY ANYTHING.
BUT DOES THAT MEAN IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO? WELL, THERE WAS A HOUSE IN RALEIGH THAT THE OWNER SAID TO THE WORKMAN, YOU CAN'T SAND THE FLOORS.
AND WHEN THE OWNER CAME BACK, THE MAN HAD WIRE FLASHED HIM.
YOU KNOW, THEY, THEY'RE GOODS OUT THERE
[02:00:01]
A BIG, BIG ISSUE FOR CERTAIN PEOPLE.HAND SANDING WON'T PROJECT PAINT ONTO YOUR NEIGHBORS EITHER.
THAT'S A, A BIG PART OF IT IS CONTAINING THE, THE MESS ONTO YOUR OWN PROPERTY.
AND, AND, AND IF IT'S LEAD, I WAS JUST GONNA SAY THAT, LET'S NOT TALK TOO MUCH ABOUT HOW MANY, HOW MANY BUILDINGS HERE HAVE LEAD PAINT ON 'EM STILL
AND I GUESS THE NEXT, THE LAST ONE I HAVE IS, UH, DEMOLITION PROCEDURE ON NON-CONTRIBUTING PROPERTIES.
REMEMBER WE, WE REALLY GOT STUCK ON THAT.
MY THINKING IS, IF YOU LOOK AT THE FIRST CRITERIA, WHICH NOW TALKS ABOUT ARCHITECTURAL SIGNIFICANCE, IF YOU CHANGE THAT TITLE TO IS IT CONTRIBUTED? AND THEN FIRST CRITERIA WITHIN THAT, NUMBER ONE, WHAT IS THE ARCHITECTURAL SIGNIFICANCE? DID SOMEBODY LIVE THERE? THE SAME CRITERIA THAT ARE IN THAT BOX.
IF NONE OF THOSE THINGS APPLY, YOU DO NOT GO IN FURTHER.
BUT THAT MAY BE A WAY OUTTA IT RATHER THAN SAYING WE HAVE TO CONTINUE ON.
BUT WE JUST HADN'T HAD IT NOT IN A MEETING.
WELL, BECAUSE IT WASN'T THERE.
AND THEN, UM, SO, SO JIM, WERE YOU GONNA MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT THE, THE PROPOSED WORKSHEET? HAVE YOU ALL REVIEWED THE WORKSHEET? IT'S FANTASTIC.
BUT HAVE YOU ALL REVIEWED? NO, NOT IN DETAIL.
I WILL, BUT I'VE LOOKED AT IT PRETTY CLOSELY.
AND THIS, THIS IS WHAT, THIS IS WHAT WE JUST DISCUSSED IS WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO, TRYING TO CLEAR UP HERE.
YOU KNOW, IT, IT IS KIND OF LIKE THE, UM, EVALUATION WORKSHEET FOR, UH, FOR AN INFILL COA OR REALLY FOR ANY KIND OF COA PROJECT OR COMPLEX PROJECT.
HERE WE HAVE A NON-CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURE COLUMN AND A CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURE COLUMN.
AND THE IDEA IS OKAY IF IT'S NON-CONTRIBUTING, YOU KNOW, IS IT THE LAST OLDEST UNIQUE OF SOMETHING, UH, IS, DOESN'T HAVE HISTORIC SIGNIFICANCE.
IF A CONTRIBUTOR, IF A NON-CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURE DOES NOT IMMEDIATELY MEET THOSE TWO THINGS, THEN YOU KNOW, WE WE'RE DONE.
UH, SO PAGE 6.6 IS WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT.
BUT THEN IF YOU JUST CHANGE THAT CONSIDERATION, ONE TO THE, IS IT CONTRIBUTING AND THEN MOVE THOSE DOWN A NOTCH, THAT AND THE IDEA, THE IDEA IS THAT WE SHOULD KNOW LONG BEFORE WE EVER GET TO THE DEMOLITION HEARING AS TO WHETHER A NON-CONTRIBUTING SOMETHING THAT IS NON-CONTRIBUTING RIGHT.
NOW, WHETHER IT WOULD COME CLOSE TO MEETING THESE CRITERIA, WE SHOW THAT THIS SHOULD NOT BE A SURPRISE TO ANYONE.
WE SHOULDN'T GIVEN TO A DEMOLITION HEARING IS LIKE, OH WAIT A MINUTE, THIS CONTRIBUTING THING IS IMPORTANT.
WE SHOULD KNOW THAT WELL IN ADVANCE SHORT OF SOMEBODY COMING AND PROVIDING HISTORY THAT WE'VE NEVER HEARD.
EXPERT, EXPERT TESTIMONY IN SOME FASHION.
WELL IT CERTAINLY HELPS THAT WE HAVE A DEADLINE BEFORE THE DESIGN REVIEW MEETING.
WE AT LEAST HAVE A COUPLE DAYS TO PREPARE.
AND I THINK, I THINK, I THINK MATT, YOU CERTAINLY WOULD, WOULD RAISE A FLAG VERY EARLY ON THAT, HEY, WAIT A MINUTE, YOU KNOW, THIS MIGHT BE SOMETHING IMPORTANT TO CONSIDER BEFORE WE KNOCK IT DOWN.
NOW WE WILL ADD A LARGE NUMBER OF HOUSES TO CONTRIBUTING IN RIVERSIDE 30, 40 OR SO.
I THINK WE MORE LIKE 50 OR 60 50 OR SO.
I THINK I I I BET IT'S LIKE 50 OR 60.
DOES RIVERSIDE KNOW THAT ABOUT, ARE WE EXPANDING ABOUT 50 OR 60? YOU YOU GOT, IT'S UP TO YOU GUYS.
BUT YOU MAY WANNA PUT THAT WORD OUT THERE.
IT'S BEEN DISCUSSED AT TWO MEETINGS.
WELL, I MEAN IT, WE WILL GET THE WORD OUT IF WE GET THE GRANT.
SO I DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S NECESSARILY TIME TO PUSH OUT, HEY, THIS IS HAPPENING, BUT TRE COVERED IT.
SINCE, SINCE YOU HAVE ONE OF THE OFFICERS OF THE ASSOCIATION HERE, WHAT'S, WHAT'S THE, UH, GRANT FOR? DID YOU UPDATE THEIR INVENTORY? 'CAUSE IT HASN'T BEEN DONE IN DECADES.
DO YOU KNOW WHEN WE THREE FOUR THIS SUMMER WITHIN A MONTH OR TWO.
SO ANYWAY, THE LAST THING THAT MIKE ADDED WAS SHOULD THE CITY INITIATE GET DEMOLITION BY THE NEGLECT PROCESS CITY STAFF?
[02:05:01]
WE, WE HAVE DONE THAT FROM CITY STAFF.WELL, I THINK YOU SHOULD CHANGE THAT.
ARE YOU QUESTIONING THAT? MAYBE WE SHOULDN'T.
SO YOU CHANGED THAT BECAUSE NO, WE ALREADY HAD WHEN YEAH, WE ALREADY DO THAT.
THAT WHAT WE WERE TOLD NOT TO.
OH, WELL, WE HAVE DONE IN THE PAST AND MORE RECENTLY I'VE BEEN TOLD NOT TO.
WELL, IT'S NOT, IT'S JUST, UM, IT'S STILL ADMINISTRATIVE POLICY.
I DON'T THINK IT WAS INTENDED.
IT WAS JUST HAVING, HAVING THE NEIGHBORS RAT ON THEIR, ON THEIR, ON THEIR OTHER NEIGHBOR IS AFTER IT'S HAPPENING A FEW TIMES NOW, EVERYBODY'S LIKE, WHATEVER.
I, MY FRUSTRATION IS THERE'S A LONG LIST ON OUR LIST ALREADY.
AND NOTHING'S HAPPENED EXCEPT ONE.
BUT YOU KNOW, WE LOOK AT, UH, BROAD STREET.
I KNOW HOW LONG AGO YOU'RE TALKING A TIMEFRAME.
ARE YOU SAYING ONE? BECAUSE, WELL, SINCE I'VE BEEN GERMAN.
SO, UH, THERE'S A LOT ON THE LIST.
THERE'S, THERE'S PROBABLY SIX OR EIGHT.
THERE'S NO 20 GEORGE
SOME ARE MAKING PROGRESS WITH YEAH, WE HAVE, UH, WE HAVE MR. UM, ALEX BERG'S HOUSE.
THE BIBLE SAYS JESUS IS COMING, BUT IT DOESN'T SAY WHEN HE HAS, HE HAS THE DEADLINE.
SO IT WAS CERTAINLY A FEATURED TOPIC AT THE CHARETTES.
SO ANYTHING ELSE TO ADD? ANYTHING YOU'RE CONCERNED ABOUT IN THE DRAFT? ONE, THE LAST THING, THE DEFINITIONS ARE REALLY IMPORTANT AND I HAVEN'T STUDIED THE DEFINITIONS ALL.
I HAVEN'T EITHER, BUT I THINK THAT WOULD BE A GOOD THING.
BUT DEFINITIONS, UH, YOU KNOW, BORROWING THAT 'EM FROM OTHER PLACES.
IF THERE'S ONES THAT WE KNOW, WE DON'T REALLY LOVE THIS DEFINITION, BUT I'LL SPEND SOME TIME WITH THE DEFINITIONS BEFORE WE HAVE A FINAL, FINAL, FINAL DRAFT, DRAFT, DRAFT.
UM, AND I THINK WE'RE GETTING AWAY.
I BELIEVE, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE IT WILL BE AN ELECTRONIC DOCUMENT, IT'LL BE A LOT EASIER TO PUT A LINK IN THERE TO THE STATE HISTORIC PRESERVATION OFFICE AND NOT HAVE TO GET INTO HERE'S THEIR ADDRESS AND ALL THAT.
ANYTHING ELSE? APPRECIATE YOU ALL COMING.
THANKS TIM FOR PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER.
SO WHAT'S TODAY? UH, MONDAY, THURSDAY.
WE'VE GOT A MEETING WEDNESDAY.
I I MEAN THERE'S NOT A WHOLE LOT OF LINGERING THINGS.
I, ARE WE COMFORTABLE BY THE END OF THE WEEK AFTER A COUPLE OF BLESSINGS AT THE MEETING WEDNESDAY? THAT, TO START TO POST THIS? WELL, NO, NO, WE'RE NOT QUITE, I MEAN, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT DO WE NEED TO HAVE ANOTHER MEETING LIKE THIS? I THINK IF ANYBODY HAS ANYTHING THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT BRINGING IT UP WEDNESDAY.
WHAT'S THAT? AND A COMPANY, THE NAME OF THE THING THROUGHOUT, YOU CAN CHANGE THAT PRETTY READILY, RIGHT? YEAH.
I MEAN, THAT, THAT'S, THAT'S MY, MY BIGGEST, MY BIGGEST CONCERN AS FAR AS, UH, SIGNIFICANT CHANGES IS THAT, UH, WHAT DID I CALL THE COMPONENTS? YES.
AND, UH, CONTRIBUTING ADDITIONS, INFILLS RELATED TO CONTEMPORARY MATERIALS.
WHERE, WHERE, WHERE THAT GOES.
UM, WHETHER, WHETHER WE'RE IN AGREEMENT WITH THAT.
UH, I MEAN, THAT'S REALLY THE, FROM, FROM WHAT I'M HEARING, AND I KNOW THAT YOU TWO WERE, WERE SUPPORTIVE OF, OF THE APPROACH.
UM, JUST A, A A, A PLACE THAT, OKAY, I WANNA CHANGE MM-HMM
I MIGHT WANNA CHANGE SOME WINDOWS.
WHAT CAN I DO BASED ON WHETHER IT'S, YOU KNOW, CONTRIBUTING, ADDITION, INFILL.
BUT IT KIND OF, IT KIND OF ALMOST DRIVES OVER TOP OF THIS.
'CAUSE IT JUST POINTS DIRECTIONS.
SO I, I LIKE THE IDEA OF NOT MAKING IT PART OF IT, BUT KIND OF LIKE AN APPENDIX OR LIKE SOMETHING THAT JUST KIND POINTS
[02:10:01]
YOU IN THE, BY ITSELF, IT'S NOT CREATING ANY, ANY STANDARDS.IT'S JUST TELLING YOU YOU WANNA DO THIS? OKAY, HERE'S WHAT YOU, HERE'S THE, HERE'S A SECTION, HERE'S WHAT YOU GOTTA DO.
AND THAT'S, THAT'S, THAT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO MAKE THAT.
IT'S A ESSENTIALLY, OR, OR, AND I'M TRYING TO, I TRIED TO ADD A LITTLE BIT MORE WITH NARRATIVES IN THE SENSE OF, OKAY, YOU, YOU GOT A WINDOW, IT'S AN OLD WINDOW.
HERE'S WHAT YOU DO TO REPAIR IT AND HERE'S WHY YOU WANT TO REPAIR IT VERSUS REPLACE IT.
AND I THINK I'M HOPING THAT HAVING THIS EXTRA NARRATIVE ON THESE ARCHITECTURAL COMPONENTS, THEN AS A COMMISSION, AND I'M NOT THINKING ABOUT THE COMMISSION NEXT YEAR, I'M THINKING ABOUT THE COMMISSION FIVE YEARS DOWN THE ROAD THAT THEY'VE GOT SOMETHING THAT, THAT CAN SAY, OKAY, LOOK, WE REALLY DON'T WANT YOU TO REPLACE THESE WINDOWS.
AND I'M NOT SURE THAT THINGS LIKE THAT ARE, ARE IN THE DOCUMENT RIGHT NOW AS FAR AS, OKAY, HERE'S WHY.
WELL, IT'S NOT FINISHED PRODUCTIVITY.
WELL, WHY DON'T THE PRINCIPLES ACTUALLY HAVE THAT? AREN'T WE CALLING THOSE NARRATIVE SECTIONS PRINCIPLES? WHY AREN'T THE, WELL, SOME OF THEM ARE A LITTLE BIT MORE INVOLVED THAN ANYTHING THAT WE, THAT WE HAVE.
I ADDED, UM, I ADDED A LOT ON, UH, ON, YOU KNOW, OLD ON, ON LIME MORTAR BECAUSE I TOLD THE TRIP, I SAID, WHAT WAS, WHAT WAS IN THERE? THERE WAS SOMETHING IN THERE ABOUT LIME MORTAR.
SHOULD HAVE A SCOOP OF PORTLAND CEMENT.
AND IT, AND IT'S LIKE, MAN, THAT TRIP, YOU KNOW, THIS IS REALLY, THIS IS REALLY NOT A GOOD RECOMMENDATION TO MAKE.
INSTEAD IT NEEDS TO BE, OKAY, WHY DO YOU, WHY DO YOU WANT TO USE LIME MORTAR WITH OLD BRICKS? THAT'S MORE OF THE EXPLANATION THAN HOW TO MIX YOUR OWN OWN MORTAR.
AND YOU SAY THAT MEANS WITH NO PORTLAND SMITH? WELL THAT DEPENDS ON WHO YOU TALK TO AND WHAT IT IS YOU'RE TRYING TO DO.
THE RISK IS THAT, THAT THAT'S ALL THEY LOOK AT.
AND THEY COME TO THE MEETING AND SAY, WELL, I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THAT.
AND SO SOMEHOW, RIGHT, IT NEEDS TO BE SECONDARY TO THE STANDARDS.
THAT'S A GOOD, I THINK THAT'S A GOOD APPROACH.
AND AS, AS AN, YOU COULD ALWAYS MAKE THE ARGUMENT WHILE THAT'S IN THE GUIDELINES.
OF COURSE
AS AS JUST SAYING, UH, APPENDIX, THIS HAS THIS AND THIS AND THIS SO THAT YOU CAN ALWAYS REFER TO IT AND YOU CAN USE IT AS, OKAY.
AND JUST FOR AN FYI, BEFORE WE ADJOURN, ONCE WE HAVE THE DRAFT READY, NOT THE PRETTY DRAFT, JUST THE WORD DRAFT, UH, CONTACT, WE'RE GONNA LINK IT, PUT IT ON POSTCARDS AND NOTIFY EVERY SINGLE PROPERTY OWNER AND BOTH THE SORT DISTRICTS WHERE THEY CAN GO READ IT.
IT TAKES ABOUT TWO WEEKS FOR ME TO GET THOSE.
I'M JUST GONNA PAY A COMPANY TO PUT THE QR CODE ON IT.
AND UM, AND, AND WHEN YOU DO THAT, ARE YOU GONNA BE ABLE TO TELL HOW MANY PEOPLE, UM, I CAN SEE HOW MANY PEOPLE HIT THE WEBSITE YET, BUT EVERYBODY WILL GET A DIRECT NOTIFICATION.
I CAN'T MAKE THEM GO TO THE SCAN THE CODE, BUT WE ALREADY SEND IT BECAUSE THEY COMMITTED TO DOING THAT.
SO I'M NOT SURE IF THOSE POSTCARDS ARE ACTUALLY GOING TO LIST A DATE OR DATES OF PUBLIC COMMENT MEETINGS OR THIS WILL JUST BE THE DRAFT YET.
I GOTTA GET A LITTLE MORE DIRECTION.
BUT, UM, WE'RE, WE'RE CLOSE ENOUGH WHERE WE CAN START TALKING ABOUT THOSE TYPES OF LOGISTICAL THINGS.
IT PROBABLY DOESN'T NEED IT NEGATIVE.
IT PROBABLY DOESN'T NEED TO HAVE A DATE ON IT BECAUSE IF PEOPLE ARE QR CODING TO GET TO IT, YOU CAN HAVE THE DATE THERE WHEN THEY GET THERE.
YOU STILL PROBABLY WANT, I STILL, I STILL WANT TO PUT THE MEETING DATES FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE MORE COMFORTABLE SHOWING UP IF I'M GONNA GO THROUGH THE TIME AND EXPENSE OF DOING A MAILER.
I THINK WE PUT DATES OF PLEADS ON IT.
WE APPRECIATE YOURS AND ROBERT'S HELP.
ARE WE, HOW ARE PEOPLE, HOW ARE PEOPLE GIVING THEIR FEEDBACK ON THAT? WHAT'S THAT? HOW ARE PEOPLE GONNA BE GIVING THEIR FEEDBACK ON THAT? WE'LL SET UP A BOX OR SOMETHING OR SEND IT STRAIGHT TO MY EMAIL.
KNOW THAT'S HOW ALL THE LAND USE ORDINANCE COMMENTS ARE GOING.
THEY'RE GOING RIGHT IN MY EMAILS.
NO, ROBERT'S EMAIL'S WAY WORSE THAN MY A SURVEY BE BOX.
UM, SO IF NOTHING ELSE ARE WE'LL MOTION TO ADJOURN.
MOVE TO ADJOURN SECOND OR FAVOR.