* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. UH, GOOD AFTERNOON EVERYBODY. [00:00:01] WELCOME TO [1. CALL TO ORDER] THE SPECIAL MEETING OF THE NEW BERN HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION. IT IS WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 26TH, THREE O'CLOCK, AND WE ARE MEETING IN THE CONFERENCE ROOM OF THE DEVELOPMENT SERVICES BUILDING ON FIRST STREET IN NEW BERN. UM, I GUESS WE NEED TO, UH, DO ROLL CALL TO DETERMINE A QUO. MATT, COULD YOU DO THE HONORS, PLEASE? SURE. ONE SECOND. OH, AND I DO HAVE NAME TAG, I SUPPOSE. SORRY ABOUT THAT. I'M PRETTY SURE I KNOW. OKAY. JOHN. SPEED. YEAH. DEAR HUBER HERE. GREG RUSH HERE. JIM MORRISON HERE. IKA HERE. AND WE ARE EXPECTING TWO MORE, BUT WE DO HAVE A WARRANT. AND WE HAD SEVERAL, UH, DISTINGUISHED STAFF MEMBERS HERE AS WELL. OH, YES. . I FORGOT WHO YOU, I'M SO LOUD. IT'S BEEN NICE. OH, I SAID HIM. HOW, HOW DID I KNOW WHEN? ALL RIGHT, NOW THAT WE HAVE NAME TAGS, NOW WE CAN GET GOING. YOU GET STARTED. YEAH. SO [3. DISCUSSION ON PROPOSED REVISIONS TO THE DESIGN PRINCIPLES AND STANDARDS] A COUPLE THINGS. UM, AS, AS YOU KNOW, TODAY, WE ARE GOING TO GO DOWN THROUGH THE COMMENTS THAT WERE GENERATED AS A RESULT OF OUR DRAFT STANDARDS. UM, THESE COMMENTS WERE GENERATED BOTH FROM A PUBLIC MEETING TO ONLINE AS WELL AS, UM, HPC ADMINISTRATOR AND, AND ALL OF US. SO THERE'S QUITE A FEW COMMENTS WE'D LIKE TO GO THROUGH. UM, AND THEN BASED ON THE DIRECTION THAT WE GET TO, UM, THEN WE WILL REDRAFT OR MAKE WHATEVER CHANGES TO THE DRAFT. AND THE GOAL, OR A GOAL WOULD BE TO HAVE IT IN TIME FOR DESIGN REVIEW NEXT WEEK SO THAT WE CAN TRANSMIT TO, UM, SHIPPO SHIPPO, THEY'RE, THEY DON'T GET AN APPROVAL, BUT THEY GET A COMMENT. AND I UNDERSTAND, MATT, THAT THEY TYPICALLY TAKE 30 DAYS, BUT THEY'RE RUNNING A LITTLE BIT BEHIND. THEY CAN'T GUARANTEE 30. CORRECT. OKAY. AND, AND ONE OF THE THINGS WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS TO TRY TO GET THIS IN FRONT OF THE ALDERMAN BEFORE THE END OF THE YEAR. SO WE'D LIKE TO GET SHIPPO'S COMMENTS. AND EVEN IF IT'S NOT THE, THE FINAL DRAFT, IF WE GET COMMENTS FROM SHIPPO, WE CAN ADD THEM OR IGNORE THEM OR SUBTRACT AND DO WHATEVER WE NEED TO DO. UM, AND, AND I, I KNOW I HAVE BEEN A PAIN ON ALL OF THIS STUFF, AND, AND I, AND I GET THAT, BUT I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT, UM, ONE OF THIS MIGHT BE ONE OF OUR MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO DO IS TO GET THESE STANDARDS. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT TIM ALWAYS SAYS IS, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOOD THIS COMMISSION, BUT FIVE YEARS DOWN THE ROAD, 10 YEARS DOWN THE ROAD, WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE PROVIDE WHATEVER GUIDANCE WE CAN FOR EVERYBODY COMING IN. THE ONLY ONE THAT WILL BE AROUND HERE IN 10 YEARS WILL STILL BE, WILL BE JOHN, WILL BE, HE'LL BE THE ONLY ONE, UH, ON, ON THE COMMISSION WAY UP THERE WITH US, . IT'S OKAY. UH, SO, UM, I DO WANT TO TRY TO, UM, MAKE OUR, OUR DOCUMENT THE BEST WE CAN. AND, AND SO, UM, I, THAT'S WHY I'VE BEEN SO ADAMANT ON TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ADDRESS ALL THESE COMMENTS. A AFTER, UM, WE DO MAKE THE, THE WHATEVER FINAL CHANGES ARE TO THE DRAFT, AND IF WE GIVE IT, UM, ALL APPROVED BY US, UM, I, I, I, I'VE TALKED A LITTLE BIT TO, UM, TO, TO MATT AND, AND JESS, AND WE'RE GONNA TRY TO PUT TOGETHER A, A GENERIC RESPONSE TO COMMENTS. YOU KNOW, WE GOT ALL THESE COMMENTS. SOME OF THE COMMENTS WE'RE GOING TO IGNORE OR WE'RE NOT GONNA ACT ON. SOME WE ARE, SOME WE'RE GONNA DO PART OF, I'D LIKE TO PUT TOGETHER SOME KIND OF SUMMARY JUST OF PEOPLE WHO DID RESPOND AREN'T GONNA SAY, WELL, I, I SENT 'EM MY COMMENTS AND NOTHING HAPPENED. SO, BUT, AND, AND I WANT TO GO AND GIVE THE IMPRESSION THAT THEY WERE THOUGHT ABOUT. AND I THINK FOR THE MOST PART, THEY WERE, THE COM MOST WERE THE COMMENTS, THE ONES ABOUT FUNDING. I DON'T KNOW THAT WE'RE GONNA GIVE A LOT OF COMMENT ON, BUT I THINK THE OTHER ONES, I THINK IT'S WORTH AT LEAST GIVING US SOME THOUGHT. SO, UM, THE, THE, I, I DID WANT TO EXPLAIN BRIEFLY, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK IT WAS VERY CLEAR THE REVISED DRAFT THAT YOU GOT LAST NIGHT AND THE ONE THAT'S SITTING IN FRONT OF YOU NOW, THE REASON IT'S A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT IS I HAVE A TENDENCY, I THINK LIKE MANY OF THIS TO, TO CALL THEM DESIGN STANDARDS CALLED THE WHOLE DOCUMENT DESIGN STANDARDS, I THINK, AND IT'S, BUT REALLY THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY ARE. THEY'RE DESIGN PRINCIPLE ON STANDARDS AND PEOPLE CAN GET MIXED UP TALKING ABOUT STANDARDS AS THE [00:05:01] WHOLE DOCUMENT VERSUS STANDARDS THAT ARE THE SPECIFIC THINGS EACH CHAPTER. SO, UM, I, I NOW CALL THIS THE DPS THANKS TO MATT'S, UM, CLEVER IDEAS FOR DESIGN PRINCIPLE AND STANDARDS. IT'S THE DRAFT DPS. SO STANDARDS ARE THOSE ELEMENTS THAT ARE NUMBERED IN THE DOCUMENT, BUT THE DRAFT DPS IS THE WHOLE DOCUMENT THAT MAKES UP THE TEXT AND THE STANDARDS. THAT'S WHAT JIM, THAT'S, I I KNOW IT WASN'T VERY CLEAR ON THAT EMAIL. OKAY. . SO WITH THAT, ARE THERE ANY STARTING COMMENTS BEFORE WE START PLOWING THROUGH ALL THIS? DID YOU WANT TO MENTION THAT FIRST ONE AT THE BEGINNING? UM, NO. OKAY. UM, WELL, MATT'S POINT IS IF WE WANT TO BE ABLE TO VOTE TO ADOPT THE UP THE UPDATES THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TODAY AND HAVE IT DRAFTED, WE'LL MAKE, WE'LL NEED TO HAVE ALL OF THE FINAL COMMENTS. SO, SO WHATEVER GOES TODAY, PLUS ANYTHING THAT COMES IN IN THE NEXT COUPLE DAYS, WE CAN PUT INTO THE DRAFT. BUT ANYTHING ELSE IS NOT GONNA MAKE IT IN. SO IF YOU DO HAVE COMMENTS OR THOUGHTS, SPIT 'EM OUT TODAY OR, OR GET 'EM FOR THE NEXT COUPLE DAYS, OTHERWISE THEY'RE GONNA BE OUT. SO THE APPROVAL'S THE SEPTEMBER, WE'RE GONNA TRY TO, THE SEPTEMBER WE'RE GONNA TRY TO, TO SIGN REVIEW. OKAY. SO YOU WILL BE THERE. I, BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO, WE NEED YOUR VOTE. YEAH, . UM, WE'RE GONNA TRY, I DON'T KNOW, ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO KNOW ? BUT I DON'T KNOW QUITE HONESTLY IF WE'RE GONNA BE ABLE TO GET THE, GET IT DONE IN, IN A WEEK. UH, I THINK THAT'S, THAT'S, UM, AND, AND CONSIDERING THE GUY, THE GUY WHO WHO WHO HAS THE COPY ISN'T EVEN HERE. I DID TALK TO HIM YESTERDAY THOUGH. THAT'S ON HIS WAY THOUGH, RIGHT? I HOPE SO. HE SAID HE WAS GONNA BE HERE. CITY HALL PROP MOLLY IS HERE, BUT YOU WANNA MENTION AT THE LAST MEETING HE'S HERE. YEAH. I UNDERST . SO THE MEMO GOT OFF. YES. JOHN, I'M NOT GONNA LIE, I DIDN'T GET A CHANCE TO, TO READ THROUGH YOUR, YOU SENT LAST NIGHT. I, I'M STILL KIND OF WORKING OFF THE OLD, SO I'LL HAVE TO DO THE NO, THEY'RE, THEY'RE THE SAME EXCEPT FOR THE TERM STANDARD VERSUS, SO THE QUESTIONS ARE STILL THE SAME. I DID CLEAN UP SOME, SOME LANGUAGE AND SOME PUNCTUATION, BUT IT'S ESSENTIALLY THE SAME QUESTION. THE QUESTION I HAD IS, ARE WE ALSO GOING TO INCLUDE DISCUSSION ON, UM, THE ALDERMAN'S EMAIL OR THE ALDERMAN'S LETTER THAT HE SENT OFF? NO. UM, I WE'RE TREATING HIS COMMENTS LIKE ANYBODY ELSE'S COMMENTS. NOW, AFTER IT'S ALL OVER, WE WILL RESPOND TO 'EM AND SAY, YOU KNOW, LIKE, WHEN WE WOULD ANYBODY ELSE? THANKS FOR COMMENTS. HERE'S HOW WE'RE, WE'RE MOVING FORWARD WITH THEM. I, I THINK, AND, AND, UM, OR AS YOU KNOW, ALDERMAN OR ANY PZ AT THIS POINT, NO ONE REALLY HAS ANY SAY. IT'S, IT'S OUR CHARGE TO, TO MAKE WHATEVER WE THINK, YOU KNOW, DOWN THE ROAD. THEY COULD VOTE, THEY COULD CHANGE WHATEVER, BUT OUR CHARGE NOW IS PRETTY MUCH AT USING OUR EXPERTISE, OUR KNOWLEDGE IS TO COME UP WITH WHAT WE THINK IS THE BEST. OKAY. SO WE'RE GONNA READ OUT THESE OUT LOUD AND DISCUSS. WE ARE, OKAY, LET'S GO, LET'S GO. ALL RIGHT. YOU READY TO GO? YEAH. MATTHEW, ARE YOU READY TO GO? OKAY. MATT'S BEEN ACTUALLY LIKE, LIKE WRITING UP S AND STUFF. ALWAYS . OKAY, SO LET'S START. THE FIRST ONE WAS, AND THIS IS PROBABLY THE ONE THAT HAS GOTTEN THE MOST ATTENTION AT COMMENTS AND, AND, AND THAT IS SUBSTITUTE MATERIALS. SO, UM, AS YOU KNOW, WE ALREADY HAVE, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS A LOT. UM, WE HAVE THE, THE EVALUATION CRITERIA THAT'S, THAT CAME, THAT COMES OUT OF THE PRESERVATION BRIEF 16TH. UM, AND AS YOU KNOW, TECHNICAL FEASIBILITY IS, IS KIND OF THE, THE, THE KEY IN THAT. AND THEN THERE'S ALSO SOMETHING THAT TIM DID, AND IS THAT COMPREHENSIVE LIST OF WHEN YOU CAN USE, UH, CONTEMPORARY OR SUBSTITUTE MATERIALS. IT'S, YOU KNOW, PAGES LONG IN ITS VERY, SO WE ALREADY HAVE THOSE, BUT MOVING ALONG, SHOULD A NEW STANDARD BE ADDED? THAT NOTES, THAT SUBSTITUTE MATERIALS ARE ALSO ALLOWED ON NEW AND NON-CONTRIBUTING ACCESSORY STRUCTURES. NOW THAT COMMENT ALREADY IN THE TEXT, BUT SHOULD WE PUT IT AS A STANDARD JUST TO MAKE SURE IT'S CLEAR? WHY NOT? YES, YES, YES. IF THEY ALL GO THIS FAST, WE'RE GONNA BE HERE FOR 20 MINUTES. GOOD, GOOD. ALRIGHT. NUMBER TWO, . SHOULD THE, SHOULD THE DPS BE MODIFIED TO ALLOW THE USE OF VISUALLY EMULATING SUBSTITUTE MATERIALS WITHOUT A FEASIBILITY ANALYSIS ON TERTIARY ABCS OF CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURES OR [00:10:01] ON SECONDARY TERTIARY ABCS OR ON PRIMARY ABCS? LEMME SEE IF I, IF I CAN EXPLAIN THAT. SO RIGHT NOW THERE'S A FEASIBILITY, FEASIBILITY ANALYSIS. SO IF FOR SOME REASON YOU HAVE A TECHNICAL REASON WHY YOU CAN'T PUT THE EXISTING MATERIALS ON, YOU CAN COME AND LEAVE YOUR CASE, BE IT REPAIR OR WHATEVER. BE IT REPAIR. EXACTLY. HOWEVER, THERE'S SOME PEOPLE SAYING THAT WE SHOULD ALLOW WITHOUT HAVING SOME KIND OF ANALYSIS THAT WE SHOULD, AS A, AS A COMMISSION ALLOW ANYTHING THAT LOOKS HISTORIC ON EITHER THE, THE BACK OR THE SIDES FROM THE BACK OR FOR ON ANY PART OF THE CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURE. NOW, I THINK WE'VE TALKED A LOT ABOUT THAT, AND I THINK TO UP TO NOW WE'VE SAID ONLY NEW ADDITIONS FOR, FOR, UM, SUBSTITUTE MATERIALS. BUT PEOPLE ARE ASKING SHOULD WE EXPAND THAT TO ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN ON EXISTING CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURES WITHOUT US, WITHOUT ANY KIND OF AN OUT, JUST BEING ABLE TO DO IT. I SEE. NO, I'M GONNA SAY NO. I COULD PRINT OUT CARDBOARD. THAT LOOKS PRETTY CONVINCING. AND IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT GONNA LAST. THE FIRST RAINSTORM, I THINK THAT WAS UNIVERSALLY ADOPTED AT THAT MEETING WE HAD. YEAH, I, I THINK IT WAS PRETTY CLEAR WE HAD TALKED ABOUT THAT. UM, I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY IF ANYBODY WANTS TO ADD ANYTHING TO THAT. UM, I'M, I'M NOT SURE EXACTLY THE DEFINITION OF VISUALLY EMULATED. ARE YOU SAYING THAT THAT IT, THAT'S WHERE I'M CAUGHT AT TOO, BECAUSE THAT'S, THAT IT LOOKS LIKE IT LOOKS JUST LIKE WHAT IT DID BEFORE. YES. SO WE'RE SAYING NO, WE'RE NOT GOING. I THINK IT INCLUDES DIMENSIONS, IT'S NOT JUST IT'S DIMENSIONS. WELL, THE, THE, THE WAY IT WAS PHRASED IN THE COMMENTS WAS AS LONG AS IT LOOKS LIKE IT FROM, FROM ABOUT AND 20 10, 10 TO 20. YEAH. I'D SAY DEPENDING ON, ON, IS IT RIGHT CLOSE TO IT? IS IT FROM THE STREET? WELL, WE, WE DO HAVE A PROPOSED NEW DEFINITION FOR VISUALLY EMULATE, UH, READ THAT OUT. SO YEAH, WE DO, UM, IN CASE SO WE CAN MAKE SURE IT'S CLEAR. TYPICALLY USED IN REFERENCE TO A SUBSTITUTE MATERIAL, IT IS A MATERIAL THAT HAS THE SAME VISUAL CHARACTERISTICS AS THE EXISTING SLASH ORIGINAL MATERIAL IN TERMS OF APPEARANCE, COLOR, TEXTURE, DIMENSIONS, AND PROFILE. SO VINYL SIZING. THEN THE EXACTNESS IN QUOTES OF VISUAL EMULATION THAT IS REQUIRED IS DETERMINED BY THE LOCATION IMPORTANCE AND VISIBILITY OF THE ELEMENT BEING DE FRONT BEING MODIFIED. SORRY, DIDN'T MEAN TO THAT'S I PAUSE, I . YEAH, THIS IS PRETTY STRUGGLE GREATLY WITH THAT ONE. WE'VE ALL SEEN, WE'VE ALL SEEN, I'M GONNA PICK ON VINYL AND METAL SIDING. WE'VE ALL SEEN VINYL AND METAL SIDING THAT IS STAMPED AND FORMED AND SHAPED AND IT LOOKS PRETTY CONVINCING, BUT IT'S NOT, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT THE MATERIAL. I THOUGHT, AGAIN, IN THE ABSENCE OF SOME ISSUE THEY'RE TRYING TO RESOLVE, BUT I DON'T SEE, SO IS THE KEYWORD WITH IS HERE TOO, WITH WITHOUT THE FEASIBILITY ANALYSIS. SO, SO THEY COULD STILL TRY, THEY JUST GOTTA BRING IT ABSOLUTE, BUT THEY BRING IT AND BRING THAT THE WAY, THE WAY IT'S STRUCTURED OUT, YOU CAN STILL DO IT, BUT YOU HAVE TO COME IN AND CONVINCE US THAT THAT MAKES SENSE. OKAY. NOW WE BRING UP THE ISSUE, THE TALK, THE, UH, . YEAH, THEY COULDN'T, SO WE'RE NOT SLAPPING THE TABLE. NO, YOU CAN'T DO THIS. ALL RIGHT. SO IT'S JUST, AND THAT'S THE WAY IT'S PHRASE NOW, IT, IF THERE'S A REASON FOR, FOR REPAIR OR WHATEVER, IF YOU CAN COME UP IN AND TELL IT, TELL US, THEN WE COULD, WE COULD VOTE ON IT. BUT IT'S NOT JUST AN AUTOMATIC DO WHAT YOU WANT. OKAY. AND I THINK WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THAT AT LENGTH. AND, AND SO IF EVERYBODY'S COMFORTABLE WITH THAT, I SAY WE JUST KIND OF LEAVE AS IS WITH THAT, WITH THAT TECHNICAL FEASIBILITY. BUT WITH NEW ADDITIONS, STILL HAVING THE ABILITY TO HAVE SUBSTITUTE MATERIAL AND OF COURSE OUTBUILDING SUCCESSFUL STRUCTURES. OKAY, SO THIS ONE, THIS ONE IS A RELATIVELY NEW ONE. SHOULD THE USE OF SUBSTITUTE MATERIALS BE ALLOWED AFTER A CONTRIBUTING STRUCTURE IS DAMAGED BY FLOODS AND OTHER DISASTERS? WELL, WE SPENT A LOT OF TIME LOOKING AT VIDEOS TO SHOW THAT INCLUDE NEW BERN AS THE FOCUS THAT THE MATERIALS ON THE OLDER HOUSES AND BUILDINGS IS SUPERIOR. AND IT CAN BE, I GONNA SAY, BUT AGAIN, FEASIBILITY IT CAN BE DRY WITHOUT DAMAGE. IN FACT, SHIPPO USES AS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW THERE'S ONE WHERE THEY TOOK OFF ALL THE SIDING JUST TO DRAW THE INSIDE IF YOU ALL THAT. UM, BUT I THINK OUR CHALLENGE IN THE NEXT FLOOD IS TO BE OUT THERE WITH THAT. [00:15:01] AND I THINK WE'VE OUGHT TO BE SENDING IT OUT NOW AS PARTICIPATORY OTHER PEOPLE LOOK AT IT. BUT THAT'S THE COMMON THING. AND I KNOW SOMEBODY HAD ALL THEIR FLOORS REPLACED ON THERE TO FIND OUT IF THEY REALLY DIDN'T NEED TO. FLOORS ARE ONE THING, BUT SIDING DOESN'T DRY LIKE FLOORING DOES. WELL, OLD WOOD WILL, I WOULD PAINT ON IT AND ALL THAT OTHER STUFF ON IT. AND I, I JUST WONDER IF THEY'RE GONNA HAVE, IF THEY HAVE TO REPLACE PERCENTAGE OF THE HOUSE OF SIDING, I DON'T KNOW WHAT PERCENTAGE, 50%, 60%, 70%. IS THERE ANY OTHER MATERIAL OUT THERE BESIDES CARDBOARD THAT LOOKS AND FEELS LIKE WOOD AND IS COST EFFICIENT? I I DON'T KNOW OF ANY, MATT, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THERE WON'T BE IN THE NEXT FIVE, THAT GOES BACK TO THE PRIOR, THAT THAT QUESTIONING GOES BACK TO THE PRIOR ITEM AND THE FIELD OF THE FEASIBILITY ANALYSIS. SO THAT IT'S THAT YOU'RE GONNA FIND THINGS THAT WILL LOOK AND FIELD. BUT ARE THEY OF THAT QUALITY? I THINK MY ISSUE WITH THIS STATEMENT IS THAT THIS SLAMS THE DOOR OPEN FOR THE EROSION OF HISTORIC BATTERY. YEAH. AS SOON AS WE START, YOU KNOW, AND IT, IT'S BEEN SAID A MILLION TIMES IS THAT ONCE SOMETHING HISTORICAL IS GONE OR CHANGED, IT CAN'T BE BROUGHT BACK. AND IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO RESTORE SOMETHING AS COMPARED TO, TO REPAIR IT TO ITS CURRENT STATE. AND I THINK THIS IS A GREAT EXAMPLE OF THAT, WHERE AS SOON AS YOU CHANGE IT, IT'S CHANGED. ALRIGHT. NOW, NOW LET GO, GO TO GREG'S EXAMPLE THOUGH. UM, IS SO SOMEONE IS DAMAGED BY FLOODS. THE SIDING IS, IS IS TOASTED. IT'S, YOU KNOW, TREES BUMPED INTO OR WHATEVER IT, SO THE MATERIAL YOU'RE GONNA BE PUTTING ON IS NOT OLD SIDING. YOU'RE GONNA BE PUTTING ON NEW CYPRUS OR, OR PRESSURE TREATED OR SOMETHING. IT, IT'LL STILL BE WOOD, BUT IT'S NOT GONNA BE, UM, OF THE QUALITY OH, GROWTH WOULD RIGHT. NOT THE SAME QUALITY. SO IS THAT WHAT WE'RE COMFORTABLE WITH OR I THINK AS GREG WAS KIND OF LEADING TO AT THAT POINT, DO WE WANT TO ALLOW AFTER SOME POINT, AFTER SOME PERCENTAGE OF THE BUILDING GOING DO SOMETHING ELSE? AND I THINK YOU'RE SAYING NO, AND I THINK YOU'RE SAYING MAYBE I'M SO SUBSTITUTE MATERIALS WOULD MEAN YOU COULD HAVE HALF YOUR WALL. YEAH. HARD BOARD AND HALF THE WOOD. YEAH. WELL, WOULD WITH NO, NO, I THINK WHAT YOU, WHAT YOU PROBABLY HAVE TO DO IS, IS TAKE ALL THE WOOD OFF AND DO ALL HARDY. YEAH. OR WHATEVER MATERIAL. I JUST, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT SHUTS THE DOORS. HE SAID JUST, OKAY, GO AHEAD AND DO IT. WELL, UNLESS WE HAVE A FEASIBILITY ISSUE IN THERE. I JUST THINK THAT IF YOU OWN AN OLD HOME, YOU KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT MM-HMM . AND IF YOU DON'T, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. AND UM, SO REPLACING WOOD ON THE HOUSE EVERY FOUR YEARS IS AN ISSUE. SO THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING THAT KEEPS THE CREDIBILITY OF THE HOUSE, KEEPS IT, KEEPS THE HOUSE LOOKING LIKE IT DID, BUT SUSTAINABLE AND LIVABLE AND, YOU KNOW, THAT, THAT'S WHAT I'D LIKE TO DO. COMPROMISE. WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOU HAVE TO CHANGE IT EVERY FOUR YEARS? I HAVE TO CHANGE MY PORCH FLOOR. I'VE CHANGED MY BAER, I'VE CHANGED EVERY, EVERY FOUR OR FIVE YEARS I HAVE TO PAINT. I HAVE TO REPLACE ROTTEN WOOD. EVEN THOUGH IT'S BEEN FAR ON BOTH SIDES AND PAINTED IT, IT'S, YOU KNOW, THERE'S GOTTA BE SOME KIND OF BUILDING THERE THAT'S LONGER LASTING. I'M, I'M NOT DISAGREEING, BUT I'M SAYING WE WANT TO IGNORE THE FEASIBILITY ISSUE. THEM SAYING TO US ONE OF THE ISSUES, NO, WE DON'T HOW WE GET THERE, BUT I JUST DON'T WANT SOMEONE SAID, CLOSE THE DOOR, SAME FEASIBILITY. THEY NEED TO BE ABLE TO BRING IT TO US AND SHOW US THE NEED. TELL US WHAT HAPPENED AND WHY AND WHAT YOU'VE EXPLORED. YEAH. AND THAT EXAMPLE IS ACTUALLY A GREAT EXAMPLE. THAT IS PART OF MY FEAR WITH THIS IS THAT YOU TAKE A SITUATION LIKE THAT WHERE YOU GET, AND I'M JUST GONNA CALL IT HARDY 'CAUSE WE TALK ABOUT IT ALL THE TIME. YOU TAKE A SITUATION, YOU'VE GOT A HARDY PLANK AND YOU CAN, YOU CAN ORDER THAT IN JUST ABOUT ANY COLOR WITH A PRE-FINISH THAT'S GONNA GIVE A PRETTY DECENT WARRANTY. BUT YOU STILL GOT, YOU THREW OUT THE NUMBER OF 50%, YOU STILL GOT THE OTHER 50% OF THAT FACADE. THAT IS GONNA BE WOOD. IT'S GONNA NEED A DIFFERENT LEVEL OF MAINTENANCE. AND THE FEAR THAT I PERSONALLY WOULD HAVE ON THAT IS NOW EVERYTHING'S GONNA FADE DIFFERENTLY. TO BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY. YOU'RE GONNA GET SOME PEOPLE THAT ARE GONNA MAINTAIN THAT THERAPY OUT THE SAME WAY. YOU'RE GONNA GET OTHER PEOPLE THAT JUST OR I THINK IT BREAKS THAT TOO. IF YOU DO THAT AND SAY, OKAY, LET'S SAY HALF OF YOUR SIDING'S DAMAGED, OKAY, IS THAT, THEN YOU COME IN AND YOU GET THE PERMISSION TO TAKE IT ALL THE REST OF THE SIDING OFF AND PUT HARDY ON, ON THAT WHOLE LEVEL. ISN'T WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? WHOLE FACE. THE WHOLE, THE WHOLE FACE. SO [00:20:01] THE WHOLE, THAT WHOLE ELEVATION OR WHATEVER. LET'S SAY RIGHT NOW YOUR HOUSE, THE HOUSE NEXT DOOR, I USED TO BE A FIREMAN BURN DOWN TO THE GROUND. YOUR HOUSE ON THE, THAT SIDE IS PROBABLY SEVERELY DAMAGED. IT'S NOT A FLOOD, IT'S NOT THAT'S A GOOD POINT. THAT WOULD, NOW THE BURN HOUSE WILL BE AN IN. RIGHT. BUT THAT WOULD BE A REASON WE CONSIDER WHAT WE ALLOWED YOU TO DO ON THAT REPLACEMENT. YOU CAN'T, YOU CAN'T USE THE OLD WOOD. IT'S DAMAGED. AND, UH, SO WE NEED TO KNOW WHAT YOUR ISSUE. SO, AND ONE OTHER COMMENT ABOUT, UH, ONE COMMENT ABOUT YOUR EXAMPLE IS, UM, IT'S LIKELY THAT OF COURSE FOUR YEARS AGO YOU DIDN'T BUY OLD GROWTH WOOD, OR EVEN EIGHT YEARS AGO OR 12 YEARS AGO, OLD GROWTH WOOD PUT WHOEVER, OR YOU BOUGHT A HOUSE FROM SOMEONE WHO, WHATEVER. UH, SO ALL OF THAT IS GOING TO BE MODERN OR THE NEW WOOD, LET'S JUST CALL IT, UH, WITH, WITH LATEX PAINT ON IT. AND NOW WE'VE BEEN HEARING MORE ABOUT THAT PROBLEMS WITH LATEX PAINT ON ESPECIALLY NEW WOOD, BUT EVEN ON THE OLD WOOD. UH, AND SO MAYBE THERE'S, UM, WE NEED TO CREATE SOME MORE GUIDANCE FOR WHAT TO DO WHEN YOU HAVE TO REPLACE SOMETHING. I WAS GONNA SAY, CAN, CAN WE USE THAT TECHNICAL FEED OF VISIBILITY, EXPAND THAT TO, FOR, FOR AFTER DISASTER FOR SOMETHING HAPPENS SO THAT IF YOU LOSE ALL YOUR SIDING, YOU COME IN AND MAKE THE CASE, KEEP IN MIND TO THE COMMISSION. I LIKE THAT FEASIBLE STUDY THING. BUT KNOW, BUT, BUT ANALYSIS. BUT WE WON'T BE ON A PANEL. THIS WILL BE GENERATIONS OF FUTURE THINGS, HOPEFULLY. AND, AND HOPEFULLY YEAH, HOPEFULLY. SO WE DON'T WANT TO JUST LEAVE IT UP TO EVERY COMMISSION TO MAKE ARBITRARY DECISIONS. I'D LIKE TO SEE SOMETHING MORE CONCRETE THAT PEOPLE CAN LIVE WITH. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? INSTEAD OF JUST LETTING IT BE THE COMMISSION'S CHOICES. UM, YEAH, I MEAN IF YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT, YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO TALK TO THE OWNER AND SAVE SOME WOOD FROM THE SIDE SO YOU CAN REPLACE THE FRONT THAT WITHOUT DAMAGE TOO. AND YOU SAVE YOUR PRIMARY WOOD BY BRINGING IT DOWN TO THE FRONT, BUT WITHOUT THAT IT JUST LOOKS LIKE, OKAY, GO AHEAD. REPLACE EVERYTHING. YEAH. YEAH. AND, AND THAT WOULD BE MY, MY ALONG THE SAME LINES, UM, GREG IS HOW DO YOU HAVE THE DOOR PARTIALLY OPEN? I MEAN, IT, IT SEEMS LIKE IF, IF YOU OPEN IT AND TRY TO COME UP WITH WHAT ARE THE CRITERIA THAT THAT IT, IT CAN BE VERY DIFFICULT TO FIND THAT BRIGHT LINE ABOUT WHEN IT SHOULD HAPPEN AND WHEN IT SHOULDN'T. IF OKAY, WE SAY HALF OF YOUR HALF OF IT AND SOMEONE COMES IN AND GOES LIKE, WELL I'M AT 40%. SORRY, YOU CAN'T DO IT. I'M AT 52%. ALL RIGHT, NOW YOU'RE IN. I THINK THAT BECOMES A TYPICAL THING TO ADMINISTER. JUST, THERE'S JUST SO MANY GRAY AREAS AND WE HAVE TO BE FLEXIBLE, I GUESS. YEAH. I, I DON'T KNOW THE, I MEAN, I UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT, BUT I, I STILL THINK THE ANALYSIS IS, IS, IS MIGHT BE THE, THE 'CAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHAT MATERIALS THAT SOMEONE SAID 10 YEARS FROM NOW, THERE COULD BE A MUCH BETTER PRODUCT OUT THERE THAN THAT ARE EMULATES WOOD THAN AT THE HARD BOARD. AND MAYBE THAT'S, IT BECOMES THE, THE STANDARD. I I I, YEAH. IF IN FACT THERE'S ANOTHER BIG FLAG, THE COMMISSION'S GOING TO NEED TO BE MEETING WEEKLY AND PEOPLE BE ROAMING AROUND WITH GUIDANCE. UH, SO WHICH WASN'T DONE LAST TIME. WHAT HAPPENED LAST FLOOD DID, DID, WAS THERE A SPECIAL MEETING? IT WAS AWFUL. I HAD JUST LEFT THE COMMISSION AND THAT'S WHY TRIP CAME BACK. UH, BACK. I JUST, IT WAS, IT LIKE MEETINGS LIKE EVERY WEEK AND, AND THEY GOT ALL HUNG UP OVER, OVER, BUT INITIALLY THEY WEREN'T. AND, AND WHAT'S HER NAME WAS JUST TRYING TO DEAL WITH IT ALL HERSELF. IT WAS VERY, VERY TROUBLESOME AND SHE WAS JUST RECITING WHAT THEY HAD TO DO, WHICH WASN'T NECESSARILY THE RIGHT ANSWER FOR PEOPLE. RIGHT. UH, AND IT WASN'T STILL, I THINK ONCE A MONTH MEETING. AND SO THEN THEY FINALLY WORKED THEIR WAY THROUGH THAT MM-HMM . BUT WE NEEDED BE OUT ABOUT IF IT'S, IF IT HAPPENS AGAIN, IF WE WAS WAS DID YOU HAVE A HOUSE DAMAGED BY THE, BY FLOOD? ACTUALLY, I, I JUST BOUGHT MY HOUSE BEFORE THE FLOOD AND THEN I DID NOT HAVE ANY DAMAGE, BUT AFTER IT WAS IT MICHAEL THAT CAME, MY METAL ROOF LIFTED UP. OH. BUT I STILL HAD TO GO TO HBC FOR MY RENOVATION AND DEAL WITH CONTRACTORS AND ALL THAT. OH YEAH. WAS DRUG USE. SO IT WAS A TRYING TIME, I THINK. ALRIGHT. SO I GUESS WHAT I'M, WHAT I'M HEARING IS THAT CERTAINLY A, A CONCERN AND PERHAPS WE CAN FALL BACK ON THE TECHNICAL FEASIBILITY, BUT TALK ABOUT IT SPECIFICALLY FOR THOSE KINDS OF SITUATIONS, LIKE A DISASTER OR WHAT FEASIBILITY [00:25:01] AND OPTIONS REALLY. AND NUMBER TWO IS NOT A NO, BUT NUMBER TWO WAS A NO. OH, I'M SORRY. I GOT IT. THAT'S RIGHT. YEAH. NUMBER THREE IS A PARTIAL. ALRIGHT, THIS IS THE NEXT ONE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THAT FEASIBILITY. SHOULD ECONOMIC FEASIBILITY BE ADDED TO THE ANALYSIS? RIGHT NOW IT'S, THERE'S A, I DON'T KNOW, SIX OR EIGHT OR 10 DIFFERENT ITEMS. ECONOMICS IS NOT ONE OF THEM. I THINK IT'S, SO WE CAN, SO LET ME REMIND YOU THAT, UM, FOR PREVENTION, DEMOLITION BY NEGLECT, THERE IS AN OPTION FOR PEOPLE TO, UM, FILE FOR, UH, ECONOMIC FEASIBILITY, HARDSHIP, HARDSHIPS. RIGHT? SO, UH, WHAT THAT REQUIRES THOUGH IS PEOPLE HAVE TO OPEN THEIR OWN PERSONAL CHECKBOOKS AND BANK ACCOUNTS AND ALL THAT INFORMATION TO THE PUBLIC, ESSENTIALLY TO MAKE A DECISION. SO I WOULD, I WAS THINKING IT WAS ONE LINE ABOUT WOOD PRICES HAVE SKYROCKETED AND LIKE GASOLINE PRICES AND DO COMPARISON TO, SO WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE IF SOMEONE IS A QUADRILLION ERROR AND THEY HAVE TO PAY ANOTHER $10,000 FOR SOMETHING VERSUS SOMEBODY WHO DOESN'T EVEN HAVE $10,000? BIG DIFFERENCE THERE. SO YOU WOULD STILL LET THE, SO ARE YOU SAYING THAT IT'S A REQUIREMENT IS FOR THEM TO FILE THAT HARDSHIP? THEY HAVE TO BE ABLE TO SHOW THEIR ECONOMIC STATUS FOR THAT UNDER DEMOLITION, UNDER THE D UNDER THE DEMOLITION B HAVE TO PHYSICALLY SHOW WE DONE IT. RIGHT. NO ONE'S EVER VOLUNTEERED TO TAKE THAT, UM, STANCE. I THINK IT, TO ME IT'S GOING TO HAVE TO BE $10,000 FOR THAT. THAT'S CRAZY. WELL, I MEAN IF YOU LOOK AT IT THIS WAY FOR, I'M JUST IN COMPARISON WHEN I'M FILLING OUT THE FAFSA FOR MY KIDS TO GO TO COLLEGE, I'VE GOTTA PUT IT ALL OUT ON THE TABLE, HOW MUCH MONEY I HAVE IF I NEED HELP WITH THEM FOR COLLEGE. YEAH. I MEAN, SO IT'S NOT LIKE IT'S A HORRIBLE THING, BUT THERE'S, AND THERE'S OTHER THINGS TOO THAT THEY COULD SEE IT FROM THE CITY. THEY COULD, YEAH. OKAY. SO IT'S NOT JUST THE GOVERNMENT LOOKING AT MIKE, WHICH THEY PROBABLY KNOW ANYWAY, LIKE THE HOUSE AT EIGHT 11 POLL, EIGHT 13 PARTY, YOU KNOW, IF THEY HAD TO SPEND $10,000, THAT'S DIFFERENT THAN WHEN KEL WAS SPENDING 10,000. THAT'S RIGHT. SO, BUT THERE'S TWO DIFFERENT THINGS HERE. WE CAN'T PLAY, WE CAN'T PLAY. UM, WE CAN'T USE OUR JUDGMENT. YOU CAN'T LOOK AT SOMEONE'S FINANCIAL STATE. YOU'RE BLESSED. SO YOU HAVE TO BE, YOU HAVE TO BE, YOU'RE NOT. YEAH. SO THE HOUSE NOT PERSON, THAT PERSON OWNS HOUSE. THEY HAVE OTHER THINGS YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT. MY REFERENCE IS TO THE HOUSE, A $10,000 ON THAT HOUSE, WHICH IS A MILLION DOLLAR HOUSE PLUS IS DIFFERENT THAN $10,000 ON, ON HOLLY STREET. SO IT'S REALLY TWO THINGS. ONE IS THE ABILITY, AS YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT, THE ABILITY OF THE PERSON THAT TO HAVE THE MONEY AND THAT'S THE HARDSHIP THING. YEAH. I THINK THAT'S A HARD ONE FOR ALL THE THINGS WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT. THE OTHER ONE, WHICH PEOPLE SEEM TO, TO HANG ON THIS ONE IS, ALL RIGHT, UM, YOU TELL ME I HAVE TO REPAIR MY WINDOWS AND THAT'S GONNA COST ME $2,000 A WINDOW. I CAN BUY BRAND NEW ONES FOR 800, SO I SHOULD BE ABLE TO BUY NEW ONES BECAUSE THAT'S HALF THE PRICE OF A, OF, OF REPAIRING THE OLD. AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY MORE THE, THE QUESTION, ALTHOUGH MATT'S POINT IS A GOOD ONE, IS IF YOU HAVE A MILLION DOLLAR HOUSE AND THE DIFFERENTIAL IS A THOUSAND DOLLARS ON TWO WINDOWS, IT IT, IT MAKES A VERY DIFFICULT ARGUMENT TO SAY, OKAY, THAT MAKES SENSE. WELL, BUT HOW HAS BEEN IN THEIR HOME FROM LONG TIME SENIOR, THEIR HOUSE PRICES HAVE RAISED, THEIR TAXES HAVE RAISED MM-HMM . AND YOU NOW OWN A MILLION DOLLAR HOUSE, DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN YOU CAN AFFORD TO STAY IN THAT HOUSE OR TAKE CARE OF IT. NO, WE'RE NOT. BUT WE'RE NOT TASKED. WHAT I, WHAT I READ WHEN I WHEN I LOOK AT THIS THOUGH, IS THERE'S TWO DIFFERENT THINGS GOING ON. THERE'S, THERE'S A FINANCIAL COMPONENT AND THERE'S A PRESERVATION COMPONENT. THIS COMMISSION ISN'T CHARGED WITH THE FINANCIAL COMPONENT. YES. IT IS A CONCERN OF EVERY SINGLE OWNER, WHETHER YOU'RE THE BILLIONAIRE OR WHETHER YOU'RE THE GUY THAT'S JUST MAKING, MAKING THE BILLS WORK. THAT DOESN'T, TO ME SHOULDN'T BE THE WAY THAT WE LOOK AT THINGS. OUR GOAL SHOULD BE TO PRESERVE THESE STRUCTURES THAT NEED TO BE PRESERVED. 'CAUSE WITHOUT THAT, WHAT HAPPENS, THEY'RE GONE. YEAH. SO, YOU KNOW, TIM WAS TELLING ME THE OTHER DAY, UM, THAT UM, BACK WHEN THEY DID THIS IN 20 15, 16, THERE WAS A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO WERE AGAINST STANDARDS BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT [00:30:01] THEY WERE TOO LOOSE, BUT THEY WANTED TO TIGHTEN THEM DOWN AND MAKE THEM FOR THE SAME REASON. SAYING THIS IS A PRESERVATION. WE NEED TO, YOU KNOW, REALLY PUSH THE ISSUE OF PRESERVATION. AND I THINK THAT AT THE TIME THE COMMISSION KIND OF SAID, YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOTTA FIND THAT, THAT THAT SWEET SPOT WHERE WE DO PRESERVATION, WE MAINTAIN THE PROPERTIES, WE KEEP IT FOR THE FUTURE, BUT RECOGNIZE THAT IT'S PEOPLE'S HOMES AND THAT PEOPLE LIVE IN THEM. AND, AND FOR ALL THE THINGS THAT YOU GUYS JUST TALKED ABOUT, AND I THOUGHT, I THINK YOU WERE THERE AT THE TIME MM-HMM . AND, AND YOU FOUND, YOU WERE ABLE TO CONVINCE THE, THE, UH, STRICT PEOPLE THAT YOU HAD FOUND THAT THAT BRIGHT SPOT, I THINK WHERE THEY, THEY BACKED OFF OR SOMETHING. I UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT AND I THINK THAT IS EXACTLY THE, THE WHAT WE'RE SUPPOSED TO DO. BUT SHOULD THERE BE A LEVEL OF RECOGNITION THAT WE'RE NOT NECESSARILY A MUSEUM. SO PRESERVATION IN THE, IN THE BROADER SENSE DO CAN, ARE CAN WE HOLD THESE STRUCTURES? CAN WE KEEP THESE STRUCTURES FOR THE FUTURE WITH NOT DOING ALL OF THE, THE DETAILED PRESERVATION WORK THAT MIGHT BE ASSOCIATED WITH A HISTORICAL BUILDING IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT? AND THAT'S NOT A VERY GOOD EXPLANATION, BUT I THINK YOU GOT NO, I I, I GET, I CAN'T DIVORCE THE PRESERVATION BELIEF CONDITIONS, FEASIBILITY FROM THE MUD SIDE. BECAUSE IF YOUR WINDOW WAS MADE IN ITALY AND A STAINED GLASS A HUNDRED YEARS AGO AND YOU CAN'T HAVE A GUY FLY OVER FROM ITALY, THAT, THAT'S TO ME WHERE WE'RE IS THERE'S SOME UNDERLYING REASON, NOT JUST THAT I CAN GET WINDOWS FOR $800. UH, MOST WINDOWS ARE $2,000. SO, BUT NO, BUT, BUT 95% OF THESE PEOPLE WILL NOT BE FLYING. SOME HAVE THE ONLY OPTION IS TO BUY SOMEONE FROM. RIGHT. BUT THERE ARE OTHER THINGS YOU WITH TARIFFS NOW, YOU MAY NOT HAVE SURE. THAT PRICES ARE GOING. THAT THAT, THAT'S KIND OF WHAT I, JIM WAS KIND OF A GOOD POINT IS AS MORE COST OF GOOD. I WAS TALKING ABOUT NOT, NOT IF YOU'RE REASONALLY ABLE TO AFFORD OR NOT AFFORD IT. THERE'S A HUGE INCREASE OF COST OF BILLS YOU CAN'T GET THEM OR TARIFFS OR WHATEVER. AND LET'S JUST SAY THEY DON'T HAVE, WE DON'T MAKE LEAD ANYMORE FOR SOME REASON, OR I DON'T KNOW. BUT, UM, MORE COST OF GOODS IS THE WAY APPROACH TO THINGS THAT ARE EITHER TOO EXPENSIVE OR NOT READILY AVAILABLE. NOW, DO, DO YOU THINK THAT COMES UNDER THE TECHNICAL FEASIBILITY ANALYSIS? IF, IF SOMEONE COMES IN AND SAYS, YOU KNOW, I GOTTA REPLACE HIS WINDOWS THERE. THE, THE ONLY WAY I CAN DO IT IS TO, TO HAVE SOME FABRICATOR FROM ITALY FLY OVER AND RECREATE THESE EVEN THOUGH IT'S A COST. DO YOU THINK THAT'S, THAT WOULD FALL UNDER THE TECHNICAL FEASIBILITY AND, AND BY THAT I WOULD, WOULDN'T YOU? I WOULD LIKE TO THINK OUR COMMISSION IS THAT SYMPATHETIC TO THAT MM-HMM . BUT I THINK IN THE PAST I'VE BEEN, I'VE BEEN A PART OF, I THINK PEOPLE ON THE COMMISSION WERE SYMPATHETIC. MM-HMM . MUCH. YES. AND, UM, SO IT IT'S JUST HUMAN NATURE. AND I JUST 'CAUSE MY CONCERN AND, AND I, AND I I SHARE SOME OF YOUR, YOUR, UM, POSITION, JOHN, IS THAT IF WE PUT ECONOMIC IN THERE WITHOUT DEFINING IT, AND I THINK IT'D BE VERY HARD TO, TO DEFINE DOES IT OPEN THE DOOR TO SOMEONE SAYING, WELL THIS IS 5% MORE, SO THEREFORE IT'S AN ECONOMIC DETRIMENT TO ME. I SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO THE CHEAPER ALTERNATIVE. EVEN THOUGH WE ALL WOULD RECOGNIZE IT'S PROBABLY NOT THE PROPER, THE WORD ECONOMIC ITEM FOUND THE WORD THAT WOULD MAKE IT BASED ON THE STATE OF THE MATERIALS AT THAT TIME. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SAY, I THINK ECONOMIC FEASIBILITY IN 16 SOMEWHERE, IT'S ANOTHER SECTION. YEAH. BUT I THINK WE, OUR DRAFT SAYS SOMETHING THAT ECONOMIC IS NOT THE KEY OR NOT NOT A CONCERN. AND THAT SORT OF SH SHUTS THE DOOR ON ON THAT AND ISN'T PRETTY, IT REALLY BLOWS DOWN TO COME TELL US WHAT YOUR PROBLEM IS. SO, WHICH I AGREE WITH. SO PERHAPS AS A WAY OF, OF MAINTAINING THE PRESERVATION, JOHN, THAT YOU, BUT WHAT IT DOESN'T DO, IT DOESN'T GIVE A BRIGHT LINE. MM-HMM . WE CAN SAY SOMETHING ABOUT COMPLETE YOUR CASE AND IT COULD, IT COULD INCLUDE TECHNICAL, IT COULD INCLUDE MONEY, WHATEVER, BUT IT'S NOT GONNA BE A BRIGHT LINE. WOULD THAT BE OKAY, CRAIG? WHEN YOU SAY BRIGHT LINE, UH, NOT BE LIKE, LIKE AN ABSOLUTE 2% 20. YEAH, IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT 18% MORE, IT'S NOT 48% [00:35:01] PANEL. SO, BECAUSE I WAS JUST LOOKING IT UP AND I KNOW EVERYBODY CAN DEFINE IT DIFFERENTLY, BUT JUST, YOU KNOW, GOOGLE IS JUST SAYING IS ECONOMIC FEASIBILITY, IS IT WORTH THE COST? AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHERE WE WANT TO GO WITH IT. 'CAUSE THAT'S SUBJECTIVE TO WITH THAT. SO I THINK, I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT. YOUR POINT'S A GOOD ONE. WE'RE WE'RE A PRESERVATION COMMISSION. YEAH. WE'RE NOT. AND I, I KNOW THAT YOU SAY ALL THE TIME, WE'RE NOT THE APPEARANCE PEOPLE, WE ARE, OUR JOB FOR BETTER, FOR WORSE, IS TO TRY TO HAVE THE PROPERTIES WITHIN OUR HISTORIC DISTRICTS PRESERVED. AND THAT'S WHAT'S, THAT'S BEEN THE CHARGE FOR THE LAST 50 YEARS ON THIS COMMISSION. SO YOUR POINT'S GOOD ONE. YEAH. BUT UNDER THAT, UM, YOU KNOW, THERE, THERE'S, BUT KEEPING MIND PRESERVED DOESN'T MEAN LIKE GOODS AND IT MEANS LIKE GOODS, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN EXACT GOODS AND PRESERVING NEEDS, KEEP THEM STANDING, KEEP THEM BECAUSE OF THE REASON SOME OF THOSE THINGS AREN'T AVAILABLE. IF YOU COULD GET OLD GROWTH WOOD AT THE SAME PRICE, I THINK YOU WOULDN'T BE HAVING THIS QUESTION ABOUT HARVEY FORD. RIGHT. IF WE COULD GET, UM, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THESE OTHER MATERIALS NOW AT, AT A REASONABLE PRICE, I DON'T THINK IT WOULD BE AN ISSUE, I THINK, BUT I THINK IT GOES BACK TO TECHNICAL IN THE ORDINANCE, WITHIN THE FIRST CHAPTER OF OUR ORDINANCE, THE PURPOSE OF THE REGULATIONS, THESE REGULATIONS IS TO FACILITATE THE PRESERVATION AND CONSERVATION OF DESTROY DISTRICTS AND LANDMARKS. THE CITY ZONE JURISDICTION. IT'S NOT ABOUT MOVING NEW AVENUES FOR. SO IF WE COULD FIND A, ADD SOMETHING TO THE ANALYSIS THAT, MAYBE NOT ECONOMIC, BUT SOMETHING THAT WOULD ALLOW PEOPLE TO COME IN AND PLEAD THEIR CASE, IF YOU WILL, WOULD YOU BE OKAY WITH THAT? DEFINITELY. I DON'T KNOW, I I'M GONNA WORK ON THAT. BUT IF YOU HAD A WORD LIKE PROHIBITIVELY EXPENSIVE, IS THAT SOMETHING WHERE YOU GET, DON'T JUST COME AND TELL US IT'S GONNA BE ANOTHER FIVE? I DUNNO, WHAT, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT ALL THAT, JOHN? YOU'RE KIND OF, YOU'RE KIND OF ON THE, THAT'S YEAH, I'M TAKING THE BAD COP ROLE HERE. YEAH, NO, WHICH IS GOOD. AND BY THE WAY, EVERY TIME, BUT, AND I'M NOT TRYING, I'M NOT TRYING TO, BUT THERE'S A ROLE FOR THAT. AND I, AND I THINK IT IS VERY SYMPATHETIC, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, AND I REALIZED THAT WHAT I, YOU HAD SECOND, WHAT WAS THE WORD YOU PROHIBIT, PROHIBIT AGAIN, YOU GET BACK TO THAT CAN BE VERY, A SLIPPERY SLOPE. THE, THE BILLIONAIRE PROHIBITIVE IS NOT THE SAME TO THE PERSON THAT'S, BUT, BUT YOU EVEN INTO REASONABLE MAN HAS TO MAKE COMMON SENSE. REFLECTING, REFLECTING ON A COST AND A REASONABLE MAN IN LEGAL SENSE AND REFLECTING ON A COST OF HOLY COW, THAT'S NOT WORTH IT. YOU KNOW, I MEAN THERE ARE THINGS LIKE THAT. WHAT WOULD YOU WANNA SAY? I THINK WITH EVERY DEFINITION YOU GOTTA LOOK TO IT. DOES IT, YOU KNOW, WILL THIS ALIGN WITH WHAT OUR MISSION IS? AND SO IF YOU KEEP COMING BACK TO THAT, IT MAKES IT A LITTLE SIMPLER. YOU KNOW, OUR, OUR MISSION IS, IS PRESERVATION. AND SO THAT KIND OF DRAWS IT BACK TO, SO, SO IT KEEPS THE PERSONAL ASPECT. SO WOULD, WOULD, WITH THAT BEING A MISSION, WHICH I, I THINK IS A VERY VALID POINT, ARE YOU COMFORTABLE HAVING SOMETHING IN THERE, AT LEAST WITH, WITHIN OUR ANALYSIS FRAMEWORK THAT PERMITS NOT JUST TECHNICAL, NOT JUST ALL THE OTHER THINGS, BUT HAVING SOME ELEMENT OF COST IN THAT ANALYSIS? YEAH. I DON'T THINK, DON'T WE ALREADY HAVE IT THOUGH? I, I MEAN IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE, THE ITALIAN WINDOW OR THE, OR THE ATION ON A BUILDING THAT CAN'T BE MADE BECAUSE THE, THE PEOPLE ONLY. BUT I THINK THAT'S, THAT'S THE ANALYSIS THINGS WE'VE DONE IN IT IS KIND OF THERE IT IS, IT IS, BUT IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT EXPRESSLY STATED. 'CAUSE TECHNICAL FEASIBILITY, I MEAN, YOU COULD GET ANY, YOU COULD HIRE SOMEONE TO FABRICATE A A STONE THING. IT WAS OKAY, I'LL GIVE YOU WHATEVER, 12 BY 12. YEAH. I MEAN YOU COULD, I, I, THERE'S GOTTA BE SOMEONE, HIRE SOMEONE. AND AGAIN, MY BIGGEST FEAR ON IT IS A SLIPPERY SLOPE. SOMEBODY'S GONNA FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET SOMETHING PASSED AND THEN THE NEXT PERSON'S GONNA SAY, WELL, MY NEIGHBOR WAS ALLOWED TO DO X OR THE GUY AROUND THE BLOCK OR THE GAL DOWN THE STREET WHERE, AND I JUST, I JUST FEAR THAT WITHOUT A LOT OF CARE ON THAT. HOW ABOUT A SENTENCE, THE ONE SENTENCE THAT WE HAVE THAT SAYS ECONOMIC FEASIBILITY IS NOT A REASON [00:40:01] FOR DOING THAT, BUT WE MODIFY THAT SENTENCE TO SAY THAT AS PART OF THE ANALYSIS, OR JUST TAKE THAT SENTENCE OUT OR SAY SOMETHING THAT AS PART OF THE ANALYSIS, UM, THE, THE COST MATERIALS CAN BE EVALUATED OR THE, OR THE, THE SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE IN COST CAN, CAN BE, CAN BE PART OF THE ANALYSIS. I I WHAT DO YOU THINK? WHERE DO THEY GO AFTER THAT? YEAH, I, I CAN ONLY SEE IN THE END WHAT'S THE NEXT STEP. WE CAN ADDRESS THAT SOMEONE, WE CAN ADDRESS THAT AS A HARDSHIP TO SOMEONE AND ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WE CAN ADDRESS THAT THE BILLIONAIRE CAN PAY FOR IT. THE OTHER, BECAUSE TECHNICALLY WE COULD DO THAT NOW. CORRECT? I MEAN, WE COULD, SOMETHING COMES UP, BUT THEN WHAT'S THE NEXT STEP ON THE, ON, ON THE PRODUCT THAT GOES ON THE BUILDING NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN ARE WE GETTING IT DOWNGRADING THE PRODUCT? YEAH. SO, SO MY, MY MY THINKING AT THE MOMENT IS, UM, HOW, HOW WOULD EVEN THE HPC DECIDE IF IT WAS TOO EXPENSIVE OR NOT? UM, WHETHER THEY'RE A MILLIONAIRE OR NOT. RIGHT. UM, UH, JUST TOO EXPENSIVE, UM, COMPARED TO WHAT WOULD OTHERWISE BE REQUIRED. UM, AND WOULD YOU THEN REQUIRE THE APPLICANT TO PROVIDE THREE QUOTES FROM, YOU KNOW, DO YOU HAVE TO, DO YOU HAVE TO SPELL THIS OUT? OR, OR DO YOU HAVE TO SPELL IT OUT IN A MORE, YOU KNOW, ONE, ONE OF THE CONVINCING PROOF OF THE EXPENSIVE OVER EXPENSIVE COST, I DON'T WANT TO DIGRESS, BUT IN TREY'S LETTER, I DID LIKE WHAT YOU CONCLUDED THE ECONOMIC FEASIBILITY ISSUE WITH. AND HE SAID THAT SIMPLY THAT NOT AS AN ACKNOWLEDGED CONSIDERATION THAT THE HOMEOWNER'S EVIDENCE INCLUDES COST, MAKE THIS CONSIDERATION VISIBLE, EVEN INFORMALLY MAKING IT VISIBLE EVEN INFORMALLY WOULD HELP OWNERS UNDERSTAND THAT THE COMMISSION IS WEIGHING THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES AND NOT STRICTLY ENFORCING RULE. YEAH. AND AND I WAS GONNA SAY, IS THE REASON TO HAVE A COMMISSION AT ALL IF YOU COULD PUT EVERYTHING DOWN AND, AND HAVE IT, UM, ALMOST LIKE A, UM, OBJECTION. YES. SO, SO YOU, YOU WOULDN'T NEED US TO MAKE THOSE INTERPRETATIONS. IT WOULD JUST BE YOU GUYS ARE HERE FOR JUDGMENT CALLS. EXACTLY. AND, AND SO ISN'T WOULDN'T THAT WHOLE THING, THAT FEASIBILITY THE COST BE A JUDGMENT CALL BY WHOMEVER IS SITTING ON THE DOCK. YEP. ALL RIGHT. AND OVER 10 YEARS IT RAIN WILL CHANGE. I I'M SURE IT WILL. ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. YEP. EITHER MORE OR LESS. YEP. AND BACK AND FORTH. SO, SO JOHN, YOU SEEM TO BE THE ONE THAT'S KIND OF THE, ON THE, ON THE HOLDING THE LINE ON ON THE HAVING NO COST. IF WE HAD IT AS A REFERENCE, AS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE INCLUDED IN THE ANALYSIS WITHOUT SPECIFYING WHAT IT IS WITHOUT, BUT MAKE IT A PART OF THE OVERALL ANALYSIS FOR THE USE OF THAT, WOULD, WOULD YOU BE OKAY WITH THAT? YEAH, SURE. I DON'T HAVE, I DON'T HAVE, AGAIN, I DON'T, AGAIN, I DON'T, AND JUST DESCRIBE JUST THE WORD, JUST THE WORD, JUST, JUST THE WORDING OF IT SO THAT WE'RE ALL AWARE OF IT. MAYBE NOT A TRUE ECONOMIC, BUT SOMETHING IN THERE THAT ALLOWED THAT TO BE PART OF, OF THE CASE THAT CAN MAKE I THINK THE WAY IT'S WRITTEN, THEN WE SHOULD ALLOW, BECAUSE IT'S JUST THERE SHOULD ECONOMIC FEASIBILITY ADDED TO, TO THE SUBSTITUTE MATERIAL ELEMENT. AND YOU'RE ANALYZING IT. SO LIKE SAID THERE, IT COULD BE CONSIDERED SUBSET OF IT. YES. SOME SOMETHING. OKAY. THAT WOULD BE BUT HAS TO BE MORE THAN JUST YES. COST MORE. YES. NO, THEY'VE GOTTA BRING THE SAUSAGE YES. AS PART OF, AND I THINK WE CAN, AND I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING AT LEAST A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN JUST DOESN'T THAT LEAD US TO FULL CIRCLE THOUGH? SETS A BAR, RIGHT? DOESN'T THAT LEAD US TO A FULL CIRCLE CONSIDERATION? IT DOESN'T, THIS BECOME CYCLICAL BECAUSE NOW IF SOMEONE COMES AND SAYS THAT ECONOMICALLY, THIS IS NOT, THIS IS NOT FEASIBLE TO DO A, I WANT TO DO B, SO NOW WE HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT B IS AS A MATERIAL. SO NOW WE GO BACK TO OUR PRIOR ITEM WHERE WE HAVE TO DO SOME SORT OF FEASIBILITY ANALYSIS, SOME SORT TO SAY, THINK IT IS CHEAPER. THE SAME THING WOULD HAPPEN FEASIBLE IF SOMEONE CAME IN AND SAY, UH, TECH I I I CAN'T GET A MAHOGANY. ALRIGHT? AND AND PART OF THAT REASON IS, IS NOT JUST, YOU CAN'T, IT'S IF YOU COULD, MAYBE THERE IS A SOME WAY, BUT IT'D BE SO WICKED EXPENSIVE THAT YOU REALLY COULDN'T DO THAT. WE'RE JUST SAYING WE'RE WILLING TO LISTEN TO THAT AS AS, [00:45:01] AS PART OF THAT. WE MAY OR MAY NOT. BUT I THINK YOUR ANSWER IS YES. I THINK THAT'S EXACTLY ANY KIND YOU TIME YOU DO ANALYSIS, THEN YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE NEXT ONE. OKAY. ALL OF THOSE DON'T SAY THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO PROVE IT JUST BECAUSE YOU RIGHT. CONTEND THAT YOU HAVE THAT ISSUE. I'M JUST TRYING TO SEE THE NEXT STEP ON IT. AND THEN YEAH, I, I I DON'T, DON'T DISAGREE. ALL RIGHT. I'M GONNA TRY TO PUT TOGETHER SOMETHING ON THAT, BUT I, I THINK I HEAR EVERYBODY SAYING, MATT, YOU OKAY WITH COOL, YOU'RE COOL WITH THAT? YEAH. AWESOME. ALRIGHT, THE NEXT, SO BY THE WAY, I THINK THE NEXT COUPLE ARE THE ONES THAT, THE ONES WE JUST TALKED ABOUT ARE THE MORE JUST CONTENTIOUS OF ALL OF THOSE. BUT THE NEXT ONE WILL BE AS WELL. AND THAT IS ROOFS. THERE'S BEEN SOME DISCUSSION ABOUT STANDING SCENE METAL ROOF AS BEING THE ONLY METAL ROOF OPTION AVAILABLE. THAT'S KIND OF WHAT WE HAVE NOW. YOU CAN DO ASPHALT SHINGLES OR YOU CAN DO STANDING SCENE METAL. WHY IS STANDING SCENE PREFER IS JUST THE LOOK OR IS IT THE THAT IT WILL NOT BE, IT'S THE HISTORY HISTORIC, IT'S THE LOOK, IT'S NEW, NEW BURNS ADDED BECAUSE THAT WAS WHAT WAS PUT ON IN 19 23, 19 22. THE BEST MATTER IT LOOK LIKE A WAREHOUSE. WELL, ALSO ONE OF THE OTHER, UH, FACTORS THAT I DON'T THINK, UH, PEOPLE KNOW MUCH ABOUT IS THAT THE, UM, KIND OF METAL ROOFING THAT WE REQUIRE IS ALSO ONE THAT HAS WITHSTOOD ALL THE HURRICANES SUBSTANTIAL. AND, AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU GUYS REMEMBER RIVERSIDE CHURCH. YEAH. AFTER FLORENCE, THEY HAD JUST PUT A BRAND NEW METAL ROOF ON THERE AND IT WAS ALL CURLED UP AND BLOWN OFF. AND IT WAS A NON NONCOMPLIANT WELL, YES, IT WAS ACTUALLY AN ILLEGAL ROOF, RIGHT. . AND THERE IS ALREADY STOLEN RIGHT ACROSS. THE MATERIAL WAS STOLEN AND EVERYTHING. INTEREST, ONE THING TO POINT OUT IS I DID LOOK UP, I DID LOOK UP METAL ROOFS AND KIND OF WHAT WOULD'VE BEEN DONE IN THE TWENTIES AND WE'RE CLOSE, BUT WE'VE ALREADY, WITH OUR 24 INCH RULE, WE'VE ALREADY ACTUALLY ADDED QUITE A BIT OF STIPULATION THAT MODERNIZES WHAT WOULD'VE BEEN DONE BACK THEN? UM, SOMEWHERE IN MY NOTES I'VE GOT IT, BUT I BELIEVE THE STANDARD BACK THEN WOULD'VE BEEN CLOSER TO 12 INCHES. REALLY, IF YOU'RE GETTING OVER THAT, YOU'RE STARTING TO GET TO BE A REALLY WIDE PAN. SO GOING 24 IS ALREADY SORT OF A ACCEPTANCE OF A MORE MODERN STYLE. SO, SO I THINK THAT, TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, MY UNDERSTANDING AND TELL ME IF I'M WRONG, IS THAT STANDING SEAM HAS HISTORICAL SIGNIFICANCE. IT HAS THE, UM, IT'S A SOLID PRODUCT. IT'S ONE THAT, UH, AS PEOPLE HAVE SAID, THE ROOF IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF PRESERVATION. IF YOU DON'T HAVE A GOOD ROOF AND EVERYTHING LEAKS THROUGH AND RUIN EVERYTHING ELSE. I'VE HEARD THAT ONE. UM, AND, AND ON ON THE, ON THE CONVERSE SIDE, I'VE HEARD PEOPLE SAY, WELL, YOU'RE ALREADY ALLOWING ASPHALT SHINGLES, WHICH IS A VERY, MAYBE NOT NOW AS MUCH, BUT IT CERTAINLY WAS A MUCH MORE LOW COST, UM, AT THE TIME. RIGHT? SO, SO NOW YOU HAVE ONE END ASPHALT SHINGLES AND THE OTHER END YOU HAVE THIS, THIS, THIS, UM, METAL ROOF THAT ONLY A HANDFUL OF PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO DO THAT HAS, UM, SOME SIGNIFICANCE PERHAPS, ALTHOUGH KEEPING IN MIND THAT A LOT OF THE BUILDINGS THAT WERE THERE HAD THOSE METAL ROOFS PUT ON 1922 BEFORE THEN THEY HAD WOODEN SHINGLES OR TAR PAPER OR RIGHT. OR OR WHATEVER. SO MY QUESTION IS, IF WE ARE ALLOWING SHINGLES, CAN WE ALLOW SOMETHING THAT EMULATES THE STANDING SCENE THAT STILL HAS THE FLAT PAN, THAT STILL HAS, UM, YOU KNOW, THE SEAM THAT RUN AND, AND YES THEY WILL HAVE RIDGE EVENTS. YEAH. AND NOW I'VE SEEN REFERENCES AND POINTED TO ABOUT LOW PROFILE RIDGE EVENTS AND I DON'T BECAUSE THAT WOULD CHANGE THAT APPEARANCE IF WE'VE GOT SOME THAT'S ALL YOU SEE IS WHEN YOU LOOK UP THERE IS THE, IS THE CAPS DIFFERENT? THERE'S DIFFERENT, YEAH. AND DIFFERENT WAYS TO APPLY SOME OF THAT. SO YOU CAN GET A LOW PROFILE RIDGE CAP AND THERE'S ALSO OTHER WAYS TO INSTALL. THERE'S OTHER PRODUCTS IN WAYS TO INSTALL THAT IF YOU WANT, IF YOU WANNA VENTILATE YOUR RIDGE CAP, YOU DON'T NECESSARILY NEED TO USE THE MANUFACTURER'S. THERE'S NO VENTILATION ON THE STANDING SCENE. THAT'S WHY THERE'S NO VENTILATION ON THE STANDING SCENE. RIGHT. THERE CAN BE, THERE CAN THEY CAN WELL AT SET THE SCENE. NO, BUT IT, IT [00:50:01] IS REALLY HOW YOU CUT THE, HOW YOU CUT THE RIDGE OUT AND WHAT YOUR CAL IS AND HOW HOW THICK AN HEAVY THAT IS. SOME MANUFACTURING MAKE A BIG DEEP, A BIG DEEP CALF MADE FOR LIKE A TWO THREE. I GUESS ONE OF THE THINGS I WONDER ABOUT WHEN THIS QUESTION THOUGH IS WHAT ARE THEY REALLY TALKING ABOUT? THEY'RE SAYING, THEY'RE SAYING NON STANDING SCENE AND I'VE SEEN THINGS THAT, THAT THEY'RE METAL ROOFS THAT LOOK LIKE SHINGLES. THEY'RE METAL ROOFS, BUT THEY LOOK LIKE CLAY TILE. THEY'RE METAL ROOFS, BUT THEY LOOK LIKE, I THINK TILE, I THINK, I THINK WHAT PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT ARE ROOFS THAT HAVE FLAT HANDS, BUT INSTEAD OF HAVING THE STANDING SCENE, THEY HAVE SOME KIND OF OVERLAP OR, OR A SCREWED DOWN OVERLAP OR SOMETHING. SO WHEN YOU LOOKED AT IT, IT WOULD STILL HAVE A FLAT PAN WITH A, WITH A VISIBLE SEAM AS A AS NOT THE, NOT THE METAL SHINGLES OR THE, OR THE, I THINK INSTEAD OF THE CRIP SCENE, YOU JUST BASICALLY HAD SOMETHING SHOVED UP. YES, IT'S AN OVERLAP. IT'S AN OVERLAP. YES. THAT STUFF FROM LAST, LAST MEETING THAT HE PASSED UP KIND OF IS THAT I, IF I WERE TO SAY WHAT I WOULD PREFER TO SEE, I WOULDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ALTERNATIVES TO THE STANDING SCENE. PERSONALLY, I'M NOT A FAN OF, YOU KNOW, THE INTERMEDIATE, I'LL PASS IT OUT, BUT THIS PICTURE HERE, I'M NOT A FAN OF THE INTERMEDIATE RIBS THAT BECOMES VERY QUICKLY TO BE AN AGRICULTURAL TYPE LOOK TO IT. MM-HMM . THE OTHER THING THAT I'M NOT A FAN OF AND THAT VERY, VERY QUICKLY BECOMES A, A PROBLEM AMONGST PEOPLE IS EXPOSED FASTENER. YEAH. SO IT MAY BE THAT WE, IF WE WANT TO ACCEPT A COMMENT LIKE THIS OR CHANGE THIS, IT MAY BE SOMETHING THAT IT HAS TO BE A CONCEALED FASTENER AGREE TYPE SYSTEM. SO YOU'RE NOT SEEING ALL THOSE SCREW HOLES. AND I STILL LIKE THE IDEA, I WOULD STILL GRAVITATE TOWARDS THE IDEA OF THE, OF THE, THE FLAT PAN. BECAUSE AGAIN, HISTORICALLY THAT REALLY WASN'T DONE. THAT WAS MORE OF AN INVENTION AS, AS THAT PAN GOT WIDER, THEY FOUND THAT TO MAKE THAT PRINT ELIMINATE YOUR OIL CAN ISSUES MM-HMM . AND YOU GO UP STEEL. SO THERE'S WAYS, SO I I ON THE TABLE AND I WOULD LIKE YOU TO COMMENT TOO, WE HAVE AS A POS AS AN ALTERNATIVE, UM, A NON STANDING SCENE. I REMEMBER LOOKING AT THIS AND I, I AGREE WITH THE, THAT THOSE ARE JUST YEAH. UGLY, BUT WITH A CONCEALED FASTENER, FLAT PAN, SOME KIND OF A, UH, NOW YOU WOULD, YOU WOULD BE OKAY WITH A, THE SNAP OR THE LOCK OR MECHANISM ON THERE, LIKE A CLIP EDGE OR SOMETHING. SOMETHING LIKE THAT. YEAH. WHAT DO YOU THINK? UM, MY FIRST THOUGHT IS, I DON'T THINK IT IS GOING TO BE HURRICANE RESISTANT, BUT I DON'T KNOW. MAYBE THAT'S WHERE WE SHOULD, BECAUSE WITH THE DOUBLE LOCK SEAM, IT'S, IT'S, IT'S LIKE A, UH, A CLIP, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY AN EXTRA FOLD AND TIGHTER. YEAH. WELL I I AND SO THAT COULD BE A VERY REASON WHY YOU DON'T HAVE THE PROBLEMS. YOU DON'T HAVE A CAT THAT FLIES OFF AND THEN THE WIND CATCHES ON BUILDING CODES. YOU KNOW, IF YOU WERE TO BUILD A NEW HOUSE IN WEST NEWBURN AND YOU WANTED TO PUT A METAL, WE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO PUT STANDING SINK DO, YOU CAN PUT WHATEVER YOU WANT. YEAH. YOU CAN PUT IT, BUT MAYBE IT'S FULL OF ALL THE SCREW HOLES AND WE HAVE ONE IN GREEN TOOK IT OFF TWO YEARS. YEAH. OH, WITHOUT THE WIND, YOU MEAN? THEY TOOK IT OFF AND THEY PUT ON SHINGLES. SHINGLES. THEY HAD SHINGLES TOOK IT OFF. IT WAS A BRIGHT GREEN, WHICH THANK GOODNESS THEY TOOK IT OFF BRIGHT GREEN AND METAL ROOF. YES. OKAY. ALRIGHT. SO WE'VE GOT A PROPOSAL AT LEAST ON FOR, SO WHAT ABOUT WHAT, UM, JOHN SUGGESTED THERE'S A SCALLOPED OR TIN OR UM, METAL FORTIFIED ROOFS THAT YOU HEAR ABOUT? I THINK THAT WOULD BE WHERE WE NEED TO USE, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, THEY COME TO US TO MAKE THE HARD DECISION WHEN MAKE JUDGMENTS. THAT'S MORE OF A DESIGN DECISION THEN. SO I LOOKED INTO THE PROGRAM AND I SAW THAT, UM, THEY HAD, THEY'RE, UH, EFFECTIVELY GEARED FOR NEW ROOFS ON NEW HOMES, BUT THEN THEY HAVE A SUBSET PROGRAM FOR EXISTING ROOFS. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE GRANT PROGRAM? YES. OKAY. YEAH, FOR EXISTING ROOFS. UM, AND FOR EXISTING ROOFS, YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO TAKE THE ROOFING OFF. IT'S MORE A MATTER OF, UM, STRENGTHENING THE STRUCTURE AND THE SHEATHING FROM UNDERNEATH. SO IT'S ACTUALLY NOT EVEN A, A ROOF ANGLE, ALTHOUGH MY NEIGHBOR NEXT SURE. NEIGHBOR DID IT, [00:55:01] GOT HIS FOUR FIVE ROOF, GOT HIS $7,000 IN GREENBRIER. YEAH. AND PREVIOUSLY HAD HAD A COUPLE PLACES OVER, ONLY OVER HIS GARAGE WHERE HE HAD METAL UP TO DIVERT WATER. THAT DOESN'T WORK ANYMORE BECAUSE EVERY SHINGLE IS IS GLUED DOWN AND NOT GLUED DOWN LIKE HEAT. UH, THESE ARE GLUED DOWN WHEN YOU START. AND SO REALLY IT WAS QUITE A, QUITE A EFFORT. THEY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING INSIDE, WHICH IS WHAT'S GLUED NOTHING TO TIE RIGHT. I THINK THE INSIDE NO, NO BAND OR ANYTHING. NO, BUT THEY DID, THEY PUT A NEW DECK ON AND THEN HE ALSO HAD, AND MAYBE THE DECK HAS DIFFERENT SCREWS OR SOMETHING. NO, NO, NO DECK. OH, THE DECK? NO, THE WOOD, THEY JUST STRIPPED IT OFF, PUT IT ON THIS ONE. AND THEN ALSO HE HAD THE, LIKE I HAVE THE STAINLESS STEEL GUTTER GUARD SCREENING, HAD TO HAVE ALL THAT TAKEN OFF ON THAT GARAGE AND THAT HAS TO BE AFFIXED TO FACIA BOARD INSTEAD OF WHAT IT USED TO BE AIX TO. SO IT COST HIM A GOOD BIT BEYOND IT COST HIM EXTRA FIVE TO GET TO GET SEVEN. YEAH. HE'S RICH . ALRIGHT, SO ON THE TABLE WE HAVE A PROPOSAL THAT I THINK HAS SOME TRACTION AND THAT IS TO ALLOW A ALTERNATE TO A STANDING SEA METAL PROVIDED THAT IT'S CONCEALED FASTENER, STILL A FLAT PAN STILL HAS THE, THE APPEARANCE THAT THE, THE LIMIT OF 24 INCH, UM, UH, FLAT PAN. SO HOW DO WE ADDRESS, HOW DO WE ADDRESS THE TECHNOLOGY ASPECT OF THAT? THAT'S THE, THAT THAT I GUESS BECOMES A QUESTION TOO, IS THAT, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THIS STUFF IS THAT MATERIALS SHOULD BE USED THAT WERE AVAILABLE AT THE TIME, BUT CONSTRUCTION, MOST OF THOSE TYPES OF THINGS WERE NOT AVAILABLE. WELL, MOSTLY I WOULD SAY METAL ROOF PROBABLY WASN'T WHEN A LOT OF THESE HOUSES WERE. THERE'S, THERE'S SOME THAT ARE, UM, LIKE AN INTERLOCKING, I WANNA SAY LIKE A SQUARE. LIKE SQUARE INTERLOCKING. YEAH. THAT WERE PROBABLY AROUND LIKE, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT AN EXPERT IN 1920S ROOFING OR, OR EVEN OLDER, BUT I SAY OLDER. I MEAN, UH, TIM'S NOT HERE, BUT IN 1808 THERE REALLY WASN'T A LOT OF METAL ROOFING LOT. THAT WOULD'VE BEEN ALMOST ALL. SO YEAH. UM, AND PUTTING IN SOMETHING ABOUT HURRICANE RESISTANT SOMETHING, UH, CONCEALED FASTENER. I, WE COULD DRAFT SOMETHING LIKE THAT OR IN THERE. ARE YOU GUYS COMFORTABLE WITH THAT? MATT? YOU COMFORTABLE WITH THAT? SURE. LET'S SEE IT. OKAY. SHOULD WE KEEP IT AS A, AS A WIRE MATT PUSHING THINGS? WELL, WELL, IT DEPENDS HOW, YEAH. DEPENDS HOW CLEAR THE STANDARD IS. YEAH. OKAY. WHERE DO WE SIT WITH THE HURRICANE RESISTANCE PART OF THINGS THOUGH? SO WITH WINDOWS, WE DON'T REQUIRE HURRICANE RESISTANT WINDOWS OR, YOU KNOW, IN, IN NEW IN CONSTRUCTION, ANYTHING LIKE THAT. SO WHY WOULD WE WRITE THAT INTO THE, SO, UH, BUILDING INSPECTIONS ALREADY REQUIRES, UM, UH, MOST OF THE, MOST OF THE PRODUCTS ON THE OUTSIDE OF YOUR BUILDING TO BE, UH, NEW RESISTANT TO FORS 130 MILES PER HOUR OR SOMETHING FOR INFILLS. SO THAT WOULDN'T BE IN OUR PURVIEW THOUGH. UM, I THINK THAT WAS ALSO, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THAT ALSO FOR THE HOUSE THAT THE CHOSE USED TO OWN ON CRAVEN STREET. MM-HMM . THE NEW PEOPLE THAT BOUGHT THAT, THAT WERE GONNA PUT NEW WINDOWS IN. UH, AND UH, IT CAME TO THE QUESTION ABOUT WE RESISTANCE. SO YEAH, I DON'T, WE COULD ENCOURAGE HURRICANE. YES. I DON'T, WE CAN REQUIRE, YEAH. OKAY. MOVING ON. WE USE THE TERM CONTEMPORARY MATERIALS AND SUBSTITUTE MATERIALS THROUGHOUT AND DEPENDING ON WHO WROTE WHAT, UM, I, I'M, I WOULD THINK THAT USING WHAT THE PRESERVATION DIRECT YEAH. THEY, THEY USE THE TERM SUBSTITUTE MATERIALS. YEP. AND I THINK THAT MAKES SENSE. I LOOKED AT A COUPLE OTHER, UM, OTHERS ACROSS THE, THE STATE SUBSTITUTE MATERIAL SEEMS TO BE A STANDARD. SO I WOULD SAY ANYTIME WE HAVE CONTEMPORARY, WE'LL JUST TAKE IT OUT. BUT I, I THINK ADDING A DEFINITION ON THE BACK SAYING THAT SUBSTITUTE EQUALS CONTEMPORARY GO, OH, OKAY. WELL THAT MIGHT, WELL, WHEN WE'RE DOING INFILL, IT'S NOT SUBSTITUTE MATERIALS. YES. IT'S, IT'S JUST CONTEMPORARY. IT'S ALLOWED MATERIALS. SO, UM, AND I THOUGHT THAT IF, IF WE MAKE THAT CLARIFICATION AND IT BECOMES, IT BECOMES AN OPTION FOR YOU GUYS TO THEN SOMEHOW STRENGTHEN THE REVIEW REQUIREMENTS [01:00:01] FOR SUBSTITUTE MATERIALS VERSUS CONTEMPORARY MATERIALS, WHICH ARE JUST MATERIALS USED ON INFILL AND, UH, NON-CONTRIBUTING CONDITIONS. BUT YOU CAN STILL, A LOT OF PEOPLE STILL CALL 'EM SUBSTITUTE EVEN THOUGH IT IS BRAND NEW MATERIALS. YEAH. THAT WOULD BE JUST INCORRECT BECAUSE BRUCE, IT WASN'T THERE BEFORE. RIGHT? RIGHT. YES. ALL RIGHT. EXACTLY. SO I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S WHAT YOU JUST SAID OR NOT. SO, OKAY. INFO STRUCTURES, THIS IS ANOTHER BIG TOPIC. UM, WE HAVE THAT, UH, THAT IN SECTION THREE ONE, CONTEMPORARY AND COMPATIBLE DESIGN IS ENCOURAGED AND IT IS NOT APPROPRIATE TO APPLY HISTORICAL AL ARCHITECTURAL STYLES TO INFILL CONSTRUCTION. THAT'S THE STANDARD. AND IN THE TEXT, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HAS GOT A LOT OF COMMENTS DURING OUR PROCESS. SHOULD THE TEXAN STANDARDS BE MODIFIED TO NOTE THAT INFILL STRUCTURES WHILE NOT COPYING OR IMITATING THE DESIGN OF EXISTING STRUCTURES, SHOULD INCLUDE PATTERNS AND FEATURES OF NEIGHBORING STRUCTURES? SHOULD IT HAVE ELEMENTS THAT ARE CONTAINED IN OTHER STRUCTURES IN THE, THE PROXIMITY OF THE NEW INFILL. YES. CAN I MAKE A SUGGESTION? MAY THE FIRST LINE, WHAT IF WE WERE FIRST LINE OF WHAT THE FIRST, THE TOP LINE THERE. UH, DPS NOTE THAT, YEAH. CONTEMPORARY AND COMPATIBLE DESIGN. WHAT IF WE SWAPPED OUT THE WORD CONTEMPORARY TO COMPLIMENTARY? YEAH, CONTEMPORARY TO THAT SOUNDS, THAT MEANS SOMETHING DIFFERENT. SHARP LINES. EVERYONE GLASS. ALL GLASS. I HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT THE DOOR CONTEMPORARY TOO. YOU KNOW, SOME HISTORIC DISTRICTS ALLOW CONTEMPORARY MODERN HOUSES TO BE BUILT IN THAT HISTORIC DISTRICT. DO WE, MY QUESTION IS, DO WE, WOULD HE EVER ALLOW THAT? I THINK THE ANSWER IS ACCORDING TO THE STANFORD, YES. CHANGE STREET HAS THAT HOUSE WITH ALL THE WINDOWS EVERYWHERE. I THINK IF WE GO TO COMPLIMENTARY NOW YOU CAN START TO ADDRESS SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT YES, I THINK THAT'S A REALLY GOOD IDEA. THINGS THAT WERE IN MASS IDEA MASKS, AND I THINK THAT'S CORRECT. THAT THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM. BECAUSE YOU KNOW, PEOPLE, UM, LIKE A LOT LIKE THE HOUSE ON THAT'S OVER NEW YEAR NATIONAL, THAT THAT'S A NEW HOUSE, BUT IT HAD A LOT OF THE ELEMENTS OF, OF, OF A, OF A CRAFTING STYLE HOUSE. AND SO YOU GO BY, WHEN YOU GET CLOTHES, YOU CAN LOOK AND SEE DIFFERENCES, BUT JUST ON A, ON A CASUAL. AND I THINK PEOPLE ARE HAPPY WITH THAT. YEAH. UM, BUT OTHER ONES WHERE, AND I THINK THE CIGAR BAR SEEMS TO BE THE, THE LIGHTNING ROD IS BECAUSE IT LOOKS DIFFERENT. IT DOESN'T HAVE, IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE SOME OF THE OTHERS, EVEN THOUGH IT PULLS ELEMENTS OUT, EVEN THOUGH IT HAS THE VERTICAL WINDOWS AND THE BRICK. I THINK IT'S JUST GETTING CLOSE TO BEING DONE. PEOPLE ARE, HAVE LESS OBJECTIONS TO IT. AND THE HOUSE POLY, SOUTH FRONT FRANK HOUSE THAT PICKED UP ELEMENTS FROM THE, THE, UH, SHRIDER BUILDING, YOU KNOW, WHICH IS NOT VERY , BUT IF WE SAY COMPLIMENTARY AND COMPATIBLE, ISN'T THAT THE SAME THING? I MEAN, I, I LIKE, I DON'T LIKE CONTEMPORARY. I LIKE THAT WE'RE GIVING, IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT REMOVING THAT, BUT ARE COMPLEMENTARY AND COMPATIBLE. WHAT I'VE READ ON THIS THOUGH, THE SAME, WE WANT TO NOT RANDOMIZE THE EVOLUTION OF DESIGN. YEAH. I THINK THAT'S TRUE. GOT IT. SO, UM, ESSENTIALLY WE'RE TRYING TO SAY YOU CAN USE MATERIALS THAT'S AVAILABLE AT THE TIME OF CONSTRUCTION. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DESIGN. YEAH. I THINK THE ANSWER IS YES, YOU CAN. I MEAN THAT'S, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THAT, THAT YOU CAN USE SUBSTITUTE CONTEMPORARY MATERIALS. BUT I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT. IT'S, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DESIGN, THE DESIGN, THE LOOK OF IT. THIS IS FOR YES. SPRINGFIELD INFIELD. SO SHOULD, SO THE HOUSE ON NASHVILLE BEING ONE EXTREME, I I CIGAR BAR BEING THE OTHER, OR EVEN IF THE HOUSE ON EAST FRONT STREET, THE ONE ON THE WATER WITH THE RAIN CHAINS. I, I MEAN IT'S NOT, I MEAN, BUT I MEAN IT'S NOT SUPER CONTEMPORARY MODERN, BUT IT BLENDS, BUT IT'S DEFINITELY NOT A HISTORIC LOOKING LIKE THE BUILDING I BOUGHT IS STUCCO AND DECO WAS LOOKING IN. I DON'T THINK IT BLENDS. I WANT IT TO BLEND. I WANT TO CHANGE IT TO BLEND. YEAH. AND THAT SEEMS TO THAT, AND THAT'S WHERE IT CAME UP WITH , THAT COMPLIMENTARY STUFF. I THINK THAT'S A BUZZ. I THINK THAT IS AN EXCELLENT POINT AND THAT KIND OF MAKES EVERYTHING ELSE KIND OF FIT INTO IT. BUT I THINK WHAT PEOPLE READ WAS CONTEMPORARY, [01:05:01] MEANING THAT SOMEONE IS GONNA PUT IN ONE OF THE ONES YOU'D SEE ON MIAMI BEACH OR BOCA RATON THESE DAYS WHERE THEY, OR LIKE THE APARTMENT BUILDING NEXT TO HABITAT MANKY LOOKS CONTEMPORARY. IS THAT OBJECTIONABLE? I MEAN WE, IT, I I I, I, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION. I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE SAID YES. YEAH, THAT'S, THAT, THAT, THAT'S WHERE DESIGN AGAIN BECOMES SUBJECTIVE. RIGHT? RIGHT. SO I THINK WHAT I HEAR, AND I'M GONNA PICK ON TWO THINGS. I'LL PICK ON THE CIGAR BAR AND I'LL PICK ON THE NEW TACO, PLEASE. EVERYBODY'S FREAKING OUT ABOUT THE COLOR. WE'RE NOT GONNA DEAL WITH COLOR . BUT AGAIN, SUBJECTIVE, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CIGAR BAR. I'VE HEARD PEOPLE THAT IT'S GREAT. IT WORKS, IT FITS JUST FINE. IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL. I'VE HEARD PEOPLE THAT ARE ABSOLUTELY BESIDE THEMSELVES THAT THIS COMMISSION WOULD'VE APPROVE SUCH A MODERATE DESIGN. I LOOK AT THAT AS AN ARCHITECT AND I GO, HUH, . WELL, WE HAD AN EXAMPLE, AN ARCHITECT DESIGNED BEFORE THE, UH, CUB HOUSE BEFORE IT WAS CALLED THE CUB HOUSE. YEAH. IT REALLY LOOKED LIKE A PRO BON IT REALLY WAS. AND HER ART, HER DEFENSE WAS YOUR ENCOURAGING CONTEMPORARY DESIGN. AND WE, WE ARE IN THE CURRENT GUIDELINES, AND THAT DIDN'T FLY AT ALL, WAS AN INTERESTING DESIGN. NOW WE HAVE A VERY, VERY TRADITIONAL LITTLE BOX CUT. SO, I MEAN, BUT WHAT, REMEMBER THIS ALSO APPLIES TO THE COMMERCIAL DISTRICT. SO WHEN SOMEBODY WANTS TO BUILD A BIG BUILDING A HOTEL, THEY CAN'T ALL MAKE IT LOOK LIKE THE, UM, BUT IT COULD BE COMPLIMENTARY. IT COULD BE, YOU CAN, YOU CAN USE ROOFTOP STRUCTURES AND ROOFTOP CHANGES AND THINGS LIKE, JUST LIKE WHAT THEY BUILDING ACROSS ON, ON, YOU KNOW, FRONT STREET ON THE CORNER THERE. YEAH. HE, HE'S DOING SOME OF THE THINGS THAT MAKES IT LOOK, YOU KNOW, IT'S COMPLIMENTARY. I THINK THAT I, I THINK, I DON'T THINK WE NEED TWO WORDS. I THINK HE JUST USED COMPLIMENTARY. I WAS GONNA SAY, DO WE NEED COMPATIBLE? I MEAN, IT DOESN'T HURT, BUT I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW. COMPATIBLE, SUBJECTIVE. COMPLIMENTARY. COMPLIMENTARY. ALRIGHT, FINE. ALSO, I THINK WE GET, I MEAN, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT COMES UP A LOT, WHICH IS HARD TO DEFINE ON PAPER HOW TO DO THIS, THAT WORD LENDS ITSELF TO HELPING THIS ISSUE BECAUSE ONE OF THE HUGE CRITICISMS IS THE INFILL JUST DOESN'T, DOESN'T MATCH. PEOPLE CAN'T EVER TELL YOU WHY. BUT IF YOU'VE GOT, IF YOU'RE REQUIRED TO SHOW YOU'RE PULLING SOME ELEMENTS FROM THOSE SURROUNDING BUILDINGS, I THINK IT COULD HELP. I DON'T NECESSARILY, YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING IS SOMEWHAT SUBJECTIVE. I I THINK IF WE USE THE TERM COMPLIMENTARY, COULD ARCHITECTS GET SOME MODERN STUFF AWAY AND BE ABLE TO JUSTIFY? YOU'RE CORRECT. WE CAN GET RID OF MOST OF THE COMMENTS HERE BECAUSE COMPLIMENTARY DOES DO THIS. NOW THERE IS ONE THAT CAME UP RECENTLY, AND THAT IS THE FOURTH NOTE THERE. UM, OUR EXISTING DESIGN STANDARD SAYS THAT THE FOOTPRINT, SCAFFOLD PORTION OF INFILL SHALL BE IN KEEPING WITH THE NEIGHBORHOOD PROPERTIES IN GENERAL IS NOT APPROPRIATE TO CONSTRUCT A THREE STORY STRUCTURE IN AN AREA DOMINATED BY ONE STORY STRUCTURES. OUR DRAFT TAKES OUT THAT SECOND SENTENCE. IT JUST KEEPS THE FIRST ONE. WHAT BULLET POINT DO YOU HAVE? THE FOURTH ONE. OKAY. THE FOURTH ONE ON THAT PAGE. YEAH. NO, I HAD ASKED THAT MIKE, BECAUSE THAT WAS IMPORTANT ON, UH, THE DRAFT FOR THE HOUSE ON JOHNSON AND, UH, THESE TRUCKS. MM-HMM . THAT IF YOU LOOK DOWN THE STREET, UP THE STREET, IT'S ALL TWO, TWO AND A HALF AND THREE AND A HALF STORY HOUSES. RIGHT. ONE STORY DID NOT FIT. SO I THINK JIM'S QUESTION WAS, WE'VE USED THAT, THAT IN GENERAL, THAT THAT, THAT IT'S NOT APPROPRIATE SENTENCE. IT'S BEEN USED IN THE PAST. WE'VE TAKEN IT OUT. ARE WE OKAY ADDING IT BACK IN? LET ME ASK THIS. WHERE DOES ZONING STAND WITH THEIR CONTROLS AND THEIR LIMITATIONS ON BILLINGS AS FAR AS BEING ABLE COMPATIBLE, BEING ABLE TO HELP US WITH THAT FORTH? IT'S JUST FINE. JUST SO WE CAN NO LONGER CONTROL A, BUT ANYTHING AESTHETIC THROUGH ZI. BUT, BUT ZONING CONTROLS, BUILDING HEIGHT CONTROL, MAX ZONING CONTROLS, BUT IT'S NOT A MAXIMUM. THERE'S NO MINIMUM. ONE, ONE IDEA I HAD EARLIER ON, IT'S NOT A LOT OF HELP FOR, FOR THIS, SO, WELL I'M JUST TRYING TO, I'M JUST TRYING TO GET READ OF IT. IT USED TO BE, IT COULD HAVE BEEN BEFORE THE STATE GOT CRAZY AND STARTED TAKING AWAY ALL THESE ABILITIES FOR, FOR PLANNING AND [01:10:01] ZONING TO DO THINGS EARLY ON. I THOUGHT SHOULD DRAFTED ONE TIME AND SAID, UH, SHOULD WE, SHOULD THEY DEVIATE NO MORE THAN ONE STORY FROM SURROUNDING PROPERTY AROUND BUILDINGS? THAT'S HARD FOR ME, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES AND I'LL PICK ON, UH, I'LL PICK ON ANYBODY THAT'S GONNA COME IN AND TRY AND DO AN EXCUSE DEVELOPMENT A LOT OF TIME. AND THOSE ARE OBVIOUSLY SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES. A LOT OF TIMES THOSE HAVE SPECIAL ZONING, UM, PROCEDURES THAT THEY NEED TO GO THROUGH TO GET THEIR APPROVAL. BUT A LOT OF TIMES THAT ALSO LIMITS THEM TO THEIR ECONOMIC FEASIBILITY. SO I HAVE, THAT'S WHY I KIND OF SAID, WHAT DOES ZONING HAVE ON THIS? 'CAUSE I DON'T HA I DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT ANSWER. YOU KNOW, I MEAN, SOMEBODY MAY COME IN AND THEY NEED TO DO FIVE STORIES TO MAKE IT FEASIBLE. WELL, IF IT'S, IF IT'S ALL ONE STORY NEXT TO IT DOESN'T REALLY WORK. BUT IF THEY HAVE A BIG GET INTO WHETHER ECONOMICALLY FEASIBLE, WELL, NO. CORRECT. NO. BUT FOR THEM IT'S GONNA BE DO THEY BUILD OR NOT? BUT, BUT IT, IT SAYS IN GENERAL IT IS NOT APPROPRIATE. BUT IF SOMEONE WERE TO MAKE A CASE, THEN, THEN I, I'M OKAY WITH KEEPING IT. I DON'T, I I THINK IT'S A LITTLE SPECIFIC, YOU KNOW, 'CAUSE IT'S JUST TALKS ABOUT STORIES. BUT I THINK I'M OKAY PUTTING, KEEPING IT IN. DO YOU WANT, DO YOU WANT A ONE STORY HOUSE IN THE MIDST OF THESE FRONT STREET THREE, BUT HISTORIC DISTRICT LOOKING AGAIN, THEY TYPICALLY HAVE ONE STORY, TWO STORIES, THREE STORIES RIGHT NEXT TO IT. IT'S VERY MUCH LIKE THIS. AND I DON'T THINK IT AFFECTS THE WITHIN WHAT THE TEXTURE OF THE COMMUNITY. SO AGAIN, THAT'S, BUT THAT'S RIGHT. WELL WE'VE GOT A ONE STORY HOUSE ON, AND IT HAS THAT STREET RIGHT? NOT, IT'S NOT HIS HOUSE, BUT I REFERRED TO IT IS FRENCH'S HOUSE AND IT, BUT YOU KNOW, IT'S GONNA HAVE TO COME DOWN ANYWAY. BUT IT'S ONE STORY THAT WAS BUILT IN WHAT, THE FIFTIES THERE RIGHT BEFORE HB? YEAH. I THINK IT'S THE ONLY ONE ON THAT STREET, RIGHT? MM-HMM . ONLY I 15 HOUSES. EMPLOYEE TWO STORE. TWO STORE. OR AT LEAST FOUR. YOU MIGHT BE RIGHT MATT, UH, IN A BLOCK OR THREE BLOCKS IF IT HAS THAT VARIATION, BUT WHEN THEY DON'T HAVE IT, SO, AND I DON'T, SOME OF YOU MAY REMEMBER WE, UH, WE RESCUED THE CITY FROM HAVING A TWO STORY DECK ON THE FRONT OF, UH, JANELLE'S, RIGHT? YEAH. UH, AND WE WERE ABLE TO PULL OUT SOMETHING THAT WAS ACTUALLY INAPPROPRIATE. UM, UH, BUT, UH, CONVINCED THE PERSON TO CAN THE IDEA. AND THAT WAS THE WHOLE THING ABOUT LOOKUP. WE HAVE SOMEWHERE IN OUR LOOKUP STREET, LOOK DOWN THE STREET THAT IS, AND IT'S WRITTEN IN HERE JUST FOR LOCATING THE BUILDING. AND I WOULD LIKE TO SUGGEST THAT THAT IS WAS AND CAN BE A USEFUL TOOL FOR YOU GUYS AND TO EXPAND THAT TO NOT JUST BE LOCATING THE BUILDING. SO WOULD THAT BE THE THIRD BULLET? UM, YEAH. AND, AND UH, ACTUALLY ADDING THAT LOOK UP THE STREET, DOWN THE STREET TO THAT BECOMES A VERY EASILY UNDERSTOOD WAY OF UNDERSTANDING THE STYLES AND DESIGN MODELS. BUT THAT WOULD, THAT WOULD BE IN THE TEXT NOT AS A STANDARD. YEAH. AND EVEN THE DRAFT STANDARD SAYS THE FOOTPRINT, MASS STEEL, PROPORTION OF INFIELD CONSTRUCTION MUST BE WE SEL MUST, SO, YOU KNOW, WHAT, WHAT ARE YOU REALLY TELLING THE PERSON? UH, YOU, YOU LIKE TO SAY THAT IT'S, THEY'VE ALL GOTTA BE TWO STORY HOUSES. I, I I THINK THAT, I THINK WE'RE OKAY. I DON'T KNOW WHY IT WAS CHANGED TO. SO YOU'RE SAYING IT'S OKAY. I THINK WE, WE ADD IT BACK IN. I THINK, I THINK WE JUST ADD IT BACK IN. I THINK THE TERM COMPLIMENTARY TAKES CARE OF A LOT OF THESE ISSUES. I THINK WE, WE ADD THAT THIRD BULLET WITH LOOK UP AND DOWN THE STREET TO, TO TALK ABOUT WHAT, WHAT MATT WAS JUST KIND OF DOING. I THINK THEN WE'RE, WE'RE ALL GOOD. OKAY. YEP. WELL, WHAT ABOUT THE SHAPE AND LOCATION AND WINDOWS? I THINK, I THINK THAT'S, THAT THAT'S COVERED BY EVERYTHING ELSE TO GET IN SPECIFICALLY AS IN THE WEEDS. YEAH, I EXACTLY. I THINK IF YOU'RE COMPLIMENTARY, IF YOU'RE DOING ALL THAT, THEN THAT FALLS FOLLOW. YEAH. OKAY. THERE'S ALREADY A STANDARD THAT DOORS AND WINDOWS COMPLEMENT THE STRUCTURE'S. ORIGINAL DESIGN SHOULD THE BE MODIFIED TO STATE THAT THE LOCATION AND SIZE AND DOORS ON ADDITIONS SHOULD REFLECT LOCATION AND SIZE ON THE EXISTING STRUCTURE. SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT IN THE ADDITION, SHOULD [01:15:01] THE SAME SIZE DOORS ON THIS SHOULD REFLECT THE LOCATION AND SIZE OF THE ADDITIONS SHOULD KIND OF MATCH WITH THE ORIGINAL STRUCTURE. I AGREE. LIKE THE HR THAT LIKE A LOT OF THESE OLD HOMES, THEY'RE EVERY ONE OF THE DOORS ARE, ARE DIFFERENT. SO I MEAN, IT'S KIND OF ALL OVER THE PLACE. UM, WITH US MAYBE ARE A LITTLE MORE UNIFORM MM-HMM . BUT I KNOW JUST IN OUR HOUSE WHEN WE WENT TO DO OURS, THE DOORS ONLY HAD DIFFERENT SIZE ALL OVER THE PLACE. SO, UM, HOW MUCH DO YOU WANNA LIMIT WHAT PEOPLE CAN DO ON THEIR ADDITION? WELL, DOES THAT JUST MEAN THAT IN THOSE HOUSES THAT HAVE THAT YOU NOW HAVE A VARIETY OF DOOR SIZE TO CHOOSE FROM? CHOOSE. YEAH. BUT IF IT WAS UNIFORM, YOU SHOULD STICK WITH THAT. UNIFORM MEASUREMENTS. YEAH. SO DO YOU WANT TO MODIFY IT SHOULD BE COMPLIMENTARY. COMPLIMENTARY, YEAH. TO THE HOUSE. WELL, THERE SHOULD BE SOMEWHERE IN THERE. I THINK THAT, I THINK WE CAN DO THAT. YEAH. COMPLI TO THE DOORS, WINDOWS, THEY'RE ALREADY ON THE HOUSE. THIS IS ONE, THIS IS ONE WHERE I KIND OF AM LIKE, WELL, IF IT'S NOT ON THE ORIGINAL BUILDING, IT'S NOT ON THAT. BUT HOW DO WE GIVE 'EM A LITTLE BIT OF LEEWAY? YOU KNOW, IT, IT'S SEEN WONDERFUL. I THINK WE'VE, WE'VE SEEN JUST IN MY SHORT TENURE ADDITIONS COME IN THAT THE WINDOW PLACEMENT DOESN'T LOOK ANYTHING LIKE THE, THE, THE, THE ORIGINAL STRUCTURE. AND IT LOOKS WEIRD, BUT I'D RATHER, BUT I'D RATHER SEE SOMEBODY. AND I'VE SEEN WONDERFUL STRUCTURE. I COULD SEND YOU EXAMPLES. I'VE SEEN WONDERFUL BUILDINGS THAT ARE IN OLD, SEVERAL HUNDRED YEAR OLD WELLING WITH THE ULTRAMODERN ADDITION THAT THEY TAKE. AND THEY, AND I'M NOT SAYING WE GO ULTRA DRAMATIC, BUT I'VE SEEN EXAMPLES WHERE IT'S BEAUTIFUL. THEY TAKE AND THEY PRESERVE THIS GEM, BUT THAT'S NOT HOW THEY LIVE THEIR LIFE. SO THEY DO THEIR ADDITION TO, TO TO BE ABLE TO FUNCTION THE WAY THEY WANT TO LIVE. AND THEY DO THAT IN A DIFFERENT, IN A DIFFERENT STYLE, BUT THEY MAKE EM TALK TO EACH OTHER AND MAKE THEM COMPLIMENTARY TO ONE ANOTHER. SO I DON'T THINK IT NECESSARILY HAS TO BE AN EMULATION. HOW I EXACTLY, HOW DO YOU WORD THAT? IF YOUR GARDEN IS OUT BACK AND YOU WANT TO FEATURE THAT GARDEN WHEN YOU'RE BUILDING YOUR ADDITION AND YOU WANT A BEAUTIFUL PICTURE WINDOW OR PATIO DOOR, PATIO, SUN OR PATIO, ALL WHO CARES KNOW REALLY? IT'S BUILDING A NEW BUILDING ALL. AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT SO MANY OF THESE HOUSES HAVE BEEN ADDED ONTO AND THEN 50 YEARS LATER ADDED ON, ADD ON. AND SO THEY'RE NOT, SO WHAT I'M HEARING IS THAT THE STANDARD THAT EXISTS THAT DOORS AND WINDOWS COMPLEMENT THE STRUCTURE OF THE ORIGINAL DESIGN THAT WORKS EARLY. YES. SO WE WOULD NOT MODIFY THAT. SO, UM, WHAT ARE YOU GUYS THINKING WHEN YOU'RE MEANING COMPLIMENTARY. SO CAN THE ADDITION BE A GLASS FACADE? NO. RIGHT. NOT DEPENDS WHAT SIDE AND WHAT, WHAT THE PURPOSE IS. SO IF YOU'RE PUTTING A SUNROOM ON THE BACK, SO ESSENTIALLY YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT YOU AND YOU JUST SAY IT'S A NEW ADDITION. YOU THINK IT'S COMPLIMENTARY? IF IT'S, IF IT IS TERTIARY, I DON'T THINK IT'S ON THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE. NO, I THINK WE'RE DEFINITELY DRAW NO, WE'RE TALKING ADDITIONS. IT'S NEW ADDITIONS. YEAH. YEAH. BUT IF SOMEBODY SAID THEY WANTED TO LIKE ENCLOSE THE FRONT OF THEIR THING, IT'S NOT REALLY A NEW ADDITION. BUT THE BACK, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE PEOPLE, WE'VE HAD PEOPLE THAT HAVE ADDED ENCLOSED PORCHES AND, AND KIND THING S ON THE BACK. SO JUST SKIP THE COMPLIMENTARY PART AND NO, I THINK COMPLIMENTS GOOD . THAT WAS THE SETUP. WINDOWS AND DOORS OPEN. YEAH, WINDOWS. AND I MEAN THERE'S A WHOLE SIDE OF THE HOUSE IS A WINDOW. YEAH. IF IT, IF IT COMPLIMENTS TECHNICALLY AT THAT POINT, I THINK THAT'S NOT, THAT'S DEFINITELY NOT MINOR . OH YEAH. AND THEN WE'VE GOTTA MAKE THE JUDGMENT CALL. DOES THAT WORK? AND THEN AT THAT POINT ALSO, THATS WHEN WE NEED COMMUNITY INVOLVEMENT. IF, IF YOU ARE A, IF YOU ARE A STAKEHOLDER ADJACENT TO AND CAN SEE NEXT DOOR AND YOU HAVE THE RIGHT COME SPEAK ABOUT THAT AND SWAY OUR OPINION. I AM TRYING, AND AGAIN, I'M, I'M BEING THE BAD COP, BUT I'M TRYING TO, I'M TRYING TO NO, YOU'RE FINE. I'M TRYING TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT. YEAH, WE WANT TO DO A THING, BUT WE GOTTA GIVE PEOPLE'S ONLY ME TOO. I THINK WINDOW WORKS BOTH WAYS. YOU GET TO SEE IT COULD BE ABOUT THAT. ISN'T THERE WAYS TO FIX THAT? I'M MOVING ON. I'M GOING TO FENCES. OKAY. THE TITLE OF SECTION TWO FIVE IS FENCES AND GARDEN WALLS. BUT THE T AND STANDARDS TALK ABOUT WALLS THAT ARE NOT GARDEN WALLS. CAN WE JUST TAKE THE WORD GARDENING OUT OF THE TITLE? SURE. SO I THINK THE REASON THAT IT'S IN THERE IS BECAUSE IT'S NOT A BUILDING WALL. UH, AND IT ALSO, UH, IMPLIES THAT IT'S ALSO THOSE SHORT LITTLE TWO BRICKS HIGH EDGING THINGS AROUND GARDENS AND THINGS. DO YOU THINK WE [01:20:01] NEEDED THAT? UM, I, I DON'T THINK SO. I THINK BY CONTEXT, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT A WALL THAT'S DIFFERENT OR FOUNTAINS OR WHATEVER, BUT YEAH. SO, BUT UM, SITE WALLS, I DON'T KNOW. DECORATIVE I WAS EVEN THINKING. BUT SOME, SOME ARE STRUCTURAL. STRUCTURAL. I MEAN, I MEAN SOME OF EVEN THOSE SMALL ONES IN THE FRONT, THEY'RE, THEY'RE RETAINING WALLS. THEY'RE STRUCTURAL. THAT'S RIGHT. SO I BUT WHY, WHY DID YOU THINK IT NEEDED TO BE REMOVED? OR THAT WAS A COMMON CAN? I DON'T THINK ANY OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC GETS WHAT A GARDEN WALL IS. I WOULD USE THAT WORD. WE DEFINE THAT OR BETTER PUT A DEFINITELY GARDEN WALL. WHEN WE SAY FENCES AND WALLS, YOU DON'T THINK, YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE GOING TO MISTAKE THAT TO BE BUILDING WALLS? CALL THAT RETAINING WALL CALL THAT THAT WOULD BE A WALL. YEAH. NO, RIGHT. YEAH, YOU'RE RIGHT. WE HAVE HAD OUR WORDS PICKED APART IN THE LAST TWO YEARS. SO YES. PROBABLY WALLS SUCH AS RETAINING WALLS, GARDEN WALLS. WELL, RIGHT, RIGHT. BUT YOU'RE NOT GONNA, THE TITLE, THE TITLE RIGHT NOW IS FENCES AND GARDEN WALLS. MM-HMM. I THINK JUST, I THINK THE TITLE IS OKAY, FENCES AND WALLS AND WE NEED TO DO A LITTLE MORE WORK. BUT THERE IS, THEY DO IN UNDERSTAND WE TALK ABOUT OTHER KINDS OF WALL ON I THINK THE, THE THE WALLS. YEAH, THAT'S WHAT I WAS THINKING SPECIFICALLY TALKING. THIS ISN'T TALKING BUILDING WALLS. THIS IS REALLY ABOUT THE EXTERIOR OR LANDSCAPE WALLS. LANDSCAPING WALLS, FULL CIRCLE. I LIKE, I LIKE LANDSCAPE WALLS. I THINK THAT THAT'S BETTER THAN GARDEN. YEAH. YEAH. OKAY. SO NEXT ONE HAD TO DO WITH THE CONCEALED FASTENERS. IT IS THE, THE SECOND ONE. YEAH, THERE WAS, THAT CAME UP ABOUT HAVING, AND SOMEONE BROUGHT UP THAT A LOT OF ALUMINUM FENCES HAVE VISIBLE SCREW HEADS, WHICH ARE CLEARLY FASTENERS THAT ARE, YOU CAN SEE FROM THE SCREW. WELL, FENCES ARE NOT HISTORIC ELEMENTS. SO YES THEY ARE. WELL THESE ARE NEW. TWO, TWO OLD ONES ARE AND NEW ONES ARE PART OF THE HISTORIC DISTRICT. CHARACTER. CHARACTER. THE CHARACTER OF THE HISTORIC DISTRICT. YEP. THAT'S, AND AND THE QUESTION IS, DO WE WANT TO SAY THAT THEY HAVE TO BE CONCEALED OR CAN WE SAY THAT THEY MINIMIZE VISIBILITY? IS THAT TOO LOOSE? I THINK YOU MINIMIZE VISIBILITY. THEY HAVE SOME KIND OF CAPS OR DECORATIVE ITEM THAT CAN GO OVER IT. YOU CAN ALSO PAINT THE SAME COLORS IF THAT, YOU WON'T SEE IT. LIKE IT'S, YEAH. KNOCKED, GALVANIZED. AGAIN, YOU'RE GETTING INTO SUBJECTIVE, MINIMIZED VISIBILITY. BUT ARE, ARE WE, I THINK MINIMIZED VISIBILITY DOES THAT, ENCOMPASSES THAT. SO YOU'RE PAINTING IT OR PUTTING SOME DECORATIVE CAP ON IT. YOU'RE JUST KIND OF BLENDING IT. MATTHEW, ARE YOU, YOU OKAY WITH THAT? UM, WHATEVER YOU GUYS WANT. , YOU'RE THE FRONT LINE. I, I, WHATEVER IT IS, NEEDS TO BE CLEAR AND EASILY EXPLAINABLE TO ENFORCE OR NOT ENFORCED. 'CAUSE THE PROBLEM WITH HOW IT'S WRITTEN NOW HAS SURFACED SEVERAL TIMES ON FENCES. SO IT IS A THING 'CAUSE WE DO DO A LOT OF FENCES. PEOPLE LOVE THEIR FENCES. SO THIS, THIS IS WORTH A LITTLE BIT OF A CHAT, I THINK. OKAY. WELL I THINK THE, THE, THE QUESTION WAS CONCEALED FASTENERS, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF ALUMINUM FENCES THAT HAVE ARE, THAT ARE SCREWED TOGETHER AND THE SCREWS ARE VISIBLE FROM THE STREET. SO THEY'RE NOT ON THE HANDLE. YEAH. DIDN'T WE JUST GO OVER THIS LIKE TWO MONTHS AGO? YES. YES WE DID. YES. BUT THE OLD, THE OLD GUIDELINES SAY THE CURRENT SHALL NOT HAVE THE CURRENT GUIDELINES. CURRENT GUIDELINES. WELL, AND THE DRAFT WOULD DRAFT SAYS THAT FASTENERS CONCEALED FROM STREET. OKAY, PERFECT. I'LL PUT IT BACK. THE DRAFT SAYS CONCEALED FROM AND THE THOUGHT WAS MINIMIZED, MADE A LITTLE SENSE. CORRECT. I THINK WE LOOKED AT A COUPLE FENCE THAT WE DIDN'T KNOW UNTIL WE WERE RIGHT THERE HAD PASSENGERS. SO CONCEAL PASSENG WE DIDN'T KNOW. SO GIVEN MY, FROM THE STREET, ARE YOU OKAY WITH THAT? YEAH. JOHN, YOU OKAY WITH? YEAH. IS THERE A WAY OR IS IT WORTH ADDING STATEMENT THAT THOSE THAT CANNOT BE CANNOT [01:25:01] BE CONCEALED FROM YOU TO BE OBSCURED VIA PAINTING OR OTHER METHODS OR SOME, SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT? WELL, MINIMIZE KIND OF APPLIES. HAVE TO CLARIFY. YEAH, WE COULD, WE COULD PUT A CLARIFICATION NOT, I'M NOT SURE HOW TO DIRECTLY TO GO ALONG THAT ONE. MINIMIZE. OKAY. THE, SOMEONE BROUGHT UP THAT IF THERE IS FENCES THAT ARE CONSTRUCTED PARALLEL TO THE STREET, YOU KNOW HOW THE SECONDARY FENCES GO ACROSS FROM THE SIDE OF THE HOUSE TO THE, TO THE, TO THE SIDELINE. MM-HMM . SHOULD THAT SIDE FACING THE STREET, SHOULD THAT BE THE FRONT OF THE FENCE SO YOU DON'T SEE THE BACK? I WOULD GUESS YES. I BROUGHT THAT, WE BROUGHT THAT SAME THING WITH OUR HOUSE HERE IN THAT WE WERE TOLD IT HAD TO, IT WAS PICKETS, BUT IT HAD TO BE THE PICKETS FACING THE FRONT, NOT THE, THE SUPPORT. AND SO I THINK, YEAH, ABSOLUTELY. IF WHATEVER'S FACING THE STREET NEEDS TO BE THE BE THE YES. YEAH. MM-HMM. I WOULD JUST, I AGREE I WOULD AUGMENT THIS, BUT NOT JUST PARALLEL BECAUSE NOT EVERY LOT IS RECTANGULAR THE STREET. YEAH. SAFE PACE THE STREET. SO I WAS GONNA SAY, UH, WITH ONE SIDE VISIBLE TO THE STREET AND OR PARALLEL OR OBLIQUELY ANGLED TO THE STREET, SHOULD BE THAT. SO MAYBE THE FIRST VERSION IS PROBABLY A BETTER ONE WITH ONE SIDE VISIBLE TO THE STREET. YEP. FINE. I THINK THAT'S EASIER ON AGAIN, IS THERE ANYTHING IN ZONING THAT ADDRESSES THAT? THERE'S A LOT OF JURIS, THERE'S A LOT OF CITIES AND JURISDICTIONS THAT HAVE LIKE A FINISHED SIDE OF FENCE TO SPACE AWAY FROM PROPERTY OR SOMETHING TO THAT CITY. CITY OF NEW BERN DOES NOT REGULATE FENCES EXCEPT IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT. SO NOW WHAT ABOUT, I JUST THOUGHT OF THIS ONE DRIVING UP QUEEN STREET, YOU KNOW, WHERE A LOCAL BUILDERS BUILDING IS RIGHT THERE AND TO THE LEFT THERE'S A GRASSY AREA AND YOU CAN SEE THE BACK FENCES OF THOSE PEOPLE THERE ARE WOULD FROM QUEEN STREET, IF THEY WANTED TO REPLACE THEIR FENCE, LET'S SAY, WOULD THEY BE REQUIRED TO HAVE THAT? THE GOOD SIDE FACING QUEEN STREET? I THINK SO, YEAH. I MEAN IT'S, THERE'S ANOTHER PROPERTY BETWEEN THE TWO. IT JUST HAPPENED TO BE VACANT. YEAH. SO THAT'S WHY I ASKED. I THINK THAT WOULD BE CASE BY CASE BECAUSE IT, YOU KNOW. BUT DOES THAT BECAUSE OF THE VACANT, IS THAT BECOME UH, THAT'S A PRIMARY THEN JUST BECAUSE THERE'S A VACANT LOT? WELL, I WOULD SAY IT'S KIND OF PERMANENT BECAUSE IT GETS VERY NARROW AND I THINK IT'S UH, ACTUALLY BELONGS TO THE HOUSE NEXT TO NEXT TO IT. SO YOU'RE GETTING INTO IF IT FRONT SEA STREET VERSUS CONVENIENT, VISIBLE FROM STREET, I THINK YOU GOTTA STAY WITH THE ABCS, THE ADJACENCY THING. IT'S NOT THEIR LAND. I'M MOVING. OKAY. SO THIS IS THE ONE THAT CAME UP AND ACTUALLY KIND OF CAME UP. SORT OF, SORT OF. SO DID WE AGREE GO VISIBLE FROM THE STREET THING? WE AGREED TO DO THE, NOT THE, NOT NOT THE QUEEN STREET THING. NOT THE ONE BUT THE OTHER ONE. YES. HEY TIM. HEY. SO NOW THAT WE'RE ABOUT DONE, I WAS UPSTAIRS LOOKING THROUGH AND MAKING NOTES ON ALL THE STUFF OR IMMEDIATE FILE THREE. OKAY, GOOD. . NICE. WE HAD TO WALK ALL THE WAY FROM THE CITY . SO, UH, THE NEXT ONE IS CAME UP AND IT ACTUALLY CAME UP IN A, UH, SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED, THE NEIGHBOR FEUD. AND, AND THE IDEA IS THEY WERE GONNA PUT A FENCE ON THEIR PROPERTY LINE, BUT IT ENDED UP BEING ABOUT EIGHT INCHES OR, OR 10 INCHES FROM THE NEIGHBOR'S HOUSE. CORRECT. AND, AND, AND I'VE LOOKED AT SOME OTHER PLACES THAT REQUIRE THAT WHEN YOU PUT A NEW FENCE UP, YOU HAVE TO KEEP AT LEAST THREE FEET BETWEEN ANY NEW FENCE AND THE NEIGHBOR'S HOUSE. I DON'T KNOW IF LEGALLY YOU CAN DO THAT. I DON'T, BUT I BROUGHT IT IN HERE JUST AS A, UH, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE A NEIGHBOR BECAUSE THE HOUSES ARE PRETTY TIGHT IN SOME OF THOSE AREAS. UM, IN THE TIGHT ROOF, IF SOMEONE WERE TO PUT A FENCE UP RIGHT ON THE PROPERTY LINE AND YOU CAN'T MAINTAIN THE SIDE OF YOUR HOUSE WITHOUT GOING ON THE NEIGHBORS PROPERTY, THAT'S A PROBLEM. THAT'S A PROBLEM. BUT IT'S THREE FEET ABOVE. I DUNNO THE ANSWER. I THINK IT'S SOMETHING YOU CAN PUT, CAN PUT A LADDER ONE PUT AWAY FROM THE OTHER PROPERTY, PROBABLY LINE THAT PROPERTY AT HOUSE. ONE REFERENCE, I THINK IT MAY HAVE GONE TO THE BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT, WAS, UM, [01:30:01] A FENCE BETWEEN THE ROOM HOTEL AND THE CIGAR BAR. I THINK, UH, BECAUSE THE PROPERTY LINE'S ACTUALLY ON THE FACE OF THERO HOTEL. YEAH. SO, UH, THEY WERE GONNA PUT A FENCE SIX INCHES FROM THEIR WINDOWS OR WHATEVER. AND THE ARGUMENT WAS, UH, THOSE ARE APARTMENTS. PEOPLE CAN'T GET OUT THE WINDOWS IN CASE OF FIRE. SO THEY HAD THEM SET IT BACK SIX FEET TO SO PEOPLE CAN GET OUT. AND DID THEY MOVE THE BUILDING OVER FOR THE SPACE TO GET PEOPLE OUT OF THE BUILDING? YOU KNOW, THERE, THERE, ALL THIS IS ON THE PROPERTY RIGHTS QUESTION AS WELL IS, OKAY, I OWN THIS PROPERTY, SO YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT I CAN'T PUT A FENCE UP THAT, THAT YOU NOW ESSENTIALLY HAVE DEEDED OVER THREE FEET OF MY PROPERTY TO MY NEIGHBOR. AND, AND NOT ONLY THAT, YOU DON'T LIKE YOUR NEIGHBOR, BUT THAT'S ON THE FIRST PLACE. FENCE IT TO FIX THAT. THAT'S I WAS JUST SAYING IT'S A UNIQUE SUBSET OF PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT WILLING TO COOPERATE WITH THE NEIGHBORS. YEAH, THAT IS. AND AND SO I I I, I'M NOT A BIG FAN, I UNDERSTAND IT, BUT I, I DON'T, I I'M NOT A BIG FAN OF, OF ADDING THIS. OKAY. JUST NOT PUT IN THERE, JUST BE IN A CASE BY CASE TYPE. I THINK I, I, I THINK IF WE DON'T PUT ANYTHING THEN IT'LL JUST, WELL IT IS A MINOR. THEY MIGHT COME TO PROPERTIES AND WHOEVER BUILT A HOUSE LIKE THAT, THAT'S HOW THEY BUILT IT. WELL, YEAH. SO IT WAS BUILT A HUNDRED YEARS AGO, BOTH OF 'EM. SO WHOEVER BOUGHT THE HOUSE, RIGHT? YEAH. WE BOUGHT IT LIKE THAT. SO BOUGHT IT LIKE YEAH. BUT THAT, THAT KIND OF SUCK IT. IF, IF YOU'VE GOT A FENCE A FOOT FROM YOUR HOUSE, YOU COULD NEVER PAINT IT YOU WITHOUT, I, I DON'T KNOW HOW THAT WORKS. SO, SO JESS, WHAT, SINCE YOU GUYS ARE IN THE PROCESS OF, UH, OF, UH, REVIEWING LAND USE ORDINANCE, IS THIS SOMETHING THAT COULD BE ADDED IN LAND USE ORDINANCE? SHE WOULD'VE SAID THAT THEY DON'T DO ANYTHING. EXPENSES. OH, OKAY. TYPICALLY THAT IN MY EXPERIENCE, TYPICALLY THAT'S WHO DEALS WITH FENCES. IS THAT, THAT'S TYPICALLY ITS ONLY ITEM THAT, WELL, IT SEEMS LIKE IF IT'S, YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE THING ABOUT THE A A STRUCTURE, A NEW STRUCTURE HAS TO BE AT LEAST THREE FEET FROM THE PROPERTY LINE. IT SEEMS LIKE THIS WOULD BE SOME FIVE, FIVE FEET. SO THE RULE OF THUMB ON FENCES ANYWHERE I'VE EVER WORKED, MINUS THE, THE HPC STUFF IS THE ONLY RULE. IT'S HAS TO BE ON YOUR PROPERTY LINE, ON YOUR SIDE OF THE PROPERTY. AND IT'S YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVE THAT WITH A SURVEY, IF THERE'S A DISPUTE. I DON'T FEEL LIKE THAT'S ADDING FENCES TO SOMETHING ZONING REGULATES WITH ONE PERSON DOING IT IS SOMETHING I CAN FEASIBLY ACCOMMODATE BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE PUT UP FENCES. THAT'S A LOT MORE CORRECT. AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, ON, ON NEWER PLACES, THAT WORKS FINE. 'CAUSE PEOPLE HAVE SETBACKS. CLEARLY THERE WEREN'T SETBACKS. THAT'S RIGHT. UM, A HUNDRED YEARS AGO YOU HAD A LINE THAT SAID THAT NEW, SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT OF NEW FENCES SHALL NOT, UM, PREVENT SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT OF ADJACENT OWNERS FROM ACCESS OR MAINTENANCE OF THEIR BUILDING. THAT'S, THAT'S EASILY DOABLE. SOMETHING, SOMETHING THAT GIVES US, AND I'M, AND THAT COULD ALSO TAKE OUT THE DIMENSIONAL FACTOR OF THAT IS YOU GET THE DIMENSION AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU GET INTO OTHER ARGUMENTS. OH. BUT IF YOU, IF YOU, IF YOU SAY JOHN SCHMEE IS 24 INCHES WIDE, YOU GOTTA LEAVE AT LEAST 24 WIDE SO I CAN BACK THERE WITH A BUCKET AND PAINT MY WALL . YOU KNOW, THAT'S KIND OF WHAT I'M THINKING WHEN I SAY THAT. DO YOU WANNA MAKE THAT AS A TEXT OR A ? NO, YOU DON'T, YOU DON'T GET IT. I'M JUST TRYING TO THINK OF A WAY TO, SO, UH, THE PERSON PROPOSING TO PUT UP A NEW FENCE, ONE THAT HASN'T BEEN THERE BEFORE, I GUESS IS WHAT WE'RE ALL TALKING ABOUT. YEP. UM, THAT IS VERY CLOSE TO THE NEIGHBORS. UM, THE COULD A, UM, A A, UM, A TEMPORARY OR ACCESSABLE REMOVABLE SECTION, AN ACCESS EASEMENT BE PART OF THAT PROJECT. THAT'S ONE WAY OF HANDLING IT, MAN. THE ACCESS EASEMENT IS THEN DETERMINED IN THE, IN THE LEGAL DOCUMENTATION FOR IT AS TO, YOU KNOW, ONCE A YEAR, YOU KNOW, NO MORE THAN ONCE A YEAR. I DON'T KNOW, WHATEVER THEY WANT TO DO. BUT IT IS, IT'S, YOU'RE GIVING SOME RIGHT OF YOUR LAND OVER TO THE NEIGHBOR TO DO THEIR, IN ORDER TO PUT A FENCE UP IN EXCHANGE FOR YOU BEING ALLOWED TO PUT A FENCE UP. BUT I DON'T THINK WE CAN IMPLEMENT THAT. [01:35:01] WE CAN SUGGEST, I KNOW THAT GETS IN A LOT OF MUDDINESS, YOU KNOW, WE CAN, WE CAN PUT IT IN THE TEXT, BUT NOT A STANDARD. SO, SO JESSE, UM, WE DO HAVE, UM, SOME, UM, UNIQUE, UH, PROVISIONS IN THE HISTORIC PRESERVATION PORTION OF THE LAND USE ORDINANCE THAT, UM, UH, NORMALLY THE ZONING DOES, LIKE SETBACKS. WE HAVE OUR OWN SPECIFIC SETBACKS. SO, YOU KNOW, TO A CERTAIN EXTENT WE MAY BE ABLE TO ADD THINGS ABOUT THINGS THAT WE DON'T ALREADY HAVE IN THERE THAT ARE MAYBE MORE ZONING ORIENTED. JUST FOR THE, I DON'T, I'M NOT PREPARED TO START TALKING ABOUT RECOMMENDATIONS ON ACCESS EASEMENTS AND FENCES ANYWHERE TODAY. JUST FOR, YOU KNOW, JUST FOR THE HISTORIC DISTRICT THEN IT'S NOT CITYWIDE OR ANYTHING. WELL, WE CAN PUT IT IN HERE. YES. I LIKE ACKNOWLEDGING YES. THIS ISSUE WITHOUT HAVING A DIMENSION. YES. AND THERE'S VERY FEW TIMES I WOULD SAY THAT, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO FENCES OUT IN THIS FOR DISTRICTS, I THINK IT'S PROBABLY OKAY. YEAH. OKAY. AND IN THE END, THAT ISN'T ACTUALLY PART OF THE DPS, RIGHT? RIGHT. IT'S JUST IT'S PART OF THE ORDINANCE, NOT THE, NOT THE DPS. OKAY, NEXT ONE. GO AHEAD. NEXT ONE HAD TO DO WITH DUMPSTER ENCLOSURES. YEAH. THE DUMPSTER ENCLOSURES. WE, WE HAVE A LIMIT OF SIX FEET, BUT THEY'RE OFTENTIMES HIGHER THAN SIX. BUT WE ALREADY ACCOMMODATED, WHICH WE ALREADY APPROVE. WE END UP, WE END UP, UH, ESSENTIALLY DESCRIBING, EVEN ON THE COA, WE DESCRIBE IT AS A SCREAM, NOT A FENCE. OKAY. BUT WHAT, IT'S JUST SEMAN RIGHT. CLARIFIED IN FENCES. THAT'S WHERE PEOPLE LOOK FOR YEAH. THERE'S NO WAY TO LOOK UP DUMPSTERS. SO, WELL, WE DID THAT FOR PUMP STATIONS AND WE DID IT FOR DOUBLE TREE. TREE DOUBLE TREE. YEAH, THE DOUBLE TREE. THAT, THAT WAS A LIFT STATION OR SOMETHING THAT WAS AROUND, YEAH, IT WAS THE DUMPSTER. BUT THERE WAS A LIFT STATION. ONE THAT WE DID IT ON TOO SHOULD BE INCLUDED. THE FENCE MASONRY, YOUR HONORING. YES. AND WALLS. AND WALLS. . BUT THEY'RE ALL HOSPITAL. OKAY. UH, THERE IS, THERE'S A STANDARD STATING THAT SIGNS SHOULD BE ANCHORED IN MORTAR, NOT BRICKS. SHOULD THERE BE A TEXT AND STANDARD SAYING THAT ANY TYPE OF MOUNTING IN MASONRY SHOULD OCCUR IN THE ORDER AND NOT THE BRICK, NOT JUST SIGNS, BUT, SURE. ANYTHING. AND I THINK THE, THE ANSWER SHOULD BE YES. I THINK YES FOR THE SAME REASON. ALRIGHT. MM-HMM . THIS ONE GOES TALK THE NEXT ONE. WE'RE GONNA JUMP TO A B, A, B, C. IS THAT MINE? ? WAS THAT MY COMMENT? UH, YES IT WAS. I THINK SO. ABCS ARE CURRENTLY DEFINED BY THE ADJACENT STREET, WHICH GENERALLY IS THE PUBLIC VIEW. SHOULD THE DEFINITION OF ABCS BE MODIFIED TO INCLUDE PUBLIC WAYS, PLACES THAT ARE NOT STREETS, BUT THE PUBLIC IS INVITED TO UTIL UTILIZE SUCH AS PARKING LOTS, PLAZAS, WALKWAYS, ET CETERA. MM-HMM . INTERESTING. SO IF, CERTAINLY RIGHT NOW ABCS ARE BY STREETS, IF YOU HAVE A PARKING LOT NEXT TO YOUR HOUSE, DOES THAT MAKE YOUR SECONDARY REALLY A PRIMARY BECAUSE THE PUBLIC IS IN IN THAT SPACE? THAT'S THE QUESTION. GUESS RIGHT NOW THE, UH, PLAZA, DOWNTOWN FAIR PLAZA, YOU SEE THAT? MM-HMM . AND, UH, BUT THEN WHICH A BC DOES IT BECOME, THAT'S THE HARD PART. IS IT SECONDARY? TERTIARY. AND IF IT'S TERTIARY, IT'S NO DIFFERENT THAN IT'S RIGHT NOW. IT WOULD, IT WOULD BE, IT WOULD, BACK TO PRIMARY PUBLIC WAY WOULD BE THE SAME AS A STREET. WHICH MEANS THE SIDE WOULD BECOME, IT WOULD BE LIKE A CORNER LOT THEN. SO THE FRONT FACING THE STREET ARE PRIMARY. AND THEN ANYTHING ALONG THE SIDE, IT WOULD BE LIKE A CORNER LOT. AND THAT WOULD BE, THAT WOULD BE, WHICH IS A PRETTY HARSH STANDARD. IT'S A PRETTY HARSHING. 'CAUSE THAT ALSO THEN WOULD'VE PUT SAY THE, UH, THE DECK EDITION ON THE BACK OF THE DOUBLE TREE. THAT WOULD'VE BEEN A PRIMARY A, B, C. YES. CAN'T, CAN'T DO A DECK ON THE BACK ON THE, IN A PRIMARY [01:40:01] A, B, C. YEAH. I THINK IT OPENS TOO MANY OTHER QUESTIONS. THEY EVEN HAVE A, THAT THAT STREET THERE GOES ALONG THE END OF THEIR BUILDING. AND SO THEY WOULD HAVE THREE PRIMARY FACADES. THE, THE, THE, THE HOUSE THAT'S RIGHT NEXT TO THE ONE THAT JUST GOT SOLD, THAT'S RIGHT NEXT TO WHERE THEY KNOCKED DOWN THE SHRINERS IN THE PARKING LOT. SO WHAT WAS FORMALLY A IS NOW WITHOUT BE A PRIMARY THEN. SO ALL OF THOSE THINGS IN THE BACK WOULD BE, SO I, I'M HEARING WELL UP TO THE FACE OF THE HOUSE. UP TO THE FACE OF THE HOUSE. YEAH. IT JUST REALLY JUST OPENS SO MANY QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW WE DEAL WITH EVERYTHING. RIGHT. OKAY. I'M GONNA SAY NO ON THAT ONE. YEAH. SO THE NEXT ONE IS, UM, A CORNER LOT HAS THE PRIMARY ON TWO SIDES. THE TWO SIDES ARE FACING THE ADJACENT STREETS. THERE ARE SOME LOTS, AND THIS CAME UP ON THE EDGERTON THAT THE LOT FACES THREE STREETS OR TWO STREETS, FRONT AND BACK. AND THERE'S SOME ON, UH, LIKE ONE TOO. YEAH. NEW AND CHANGE. YEAH. OR I THINK THAT THERE'S A LOT THAT GOES THE WHOLE WAY THROUGH. SO SHOULD THE LOT, SHOULD ANY SIDE OF THE LOT THAT ADJACENT TO A STREET, SHOULD THAT BE CONSIDERED A PRIMARY IS THE QUESTION. WHICH WOULD THEN LIKE, MAKE THAT, WHICH WOULD MAKE, CAN ONLY DO FOUR, FOUR FENCES ON THE FRONT ON THE ENTIRE PROPERTY. DISAGREE LOT. YEAH. WELL, YOU ALL, A REGULAR CORNER LOT ISN'T AFFECTED BY THIS CHANGE. NO. OH, THE REGULAR. BUT RIGHT NOW, THE, THE CORNER LOT STILL HAS A PRIMARY ON TWO SIDES. RIGHT. ALREADY. ALREADY. THE QUESTION IS IF YOU HAVE A, LIKE A BACKLOG, A, A STREET ON YOUR BACK, RIGHT? SHOULD THAT BE THEN PRIMARY MEANING YOU ONLY COULD HAVE FOUR FOOT WALLS ON IT? I THINK SO. IT'S THE EDGE QUESTION. SO WE HAVE NEW STREET, RIGHT? REMEMBER? YES. THERE'S THAT, THAT DIAGONAL STREET THAT COMES INTO THAT. THERE'S A WHOLE BUNCH OF, ALMOST ALL OF THOSE PROPERTIES GO ALL THE WAY THROUGH TO, WHAT IS THAT LINDEN? LINDEN STREET. YEAH. AND THAT WAS ON NEW STREET. WE HAD NOT ENFORCED IT LIKE THAT NEXT ONE. HOW DO WE WORD THAT THOUGH? BECAUSE I THINK ABOUT LITERALLY A BLOCK AWAY FROM US HERE ON, WHERE AM I ON P*****K? RIGHT OVER HERE. ACROSS FROM THE PARK. YOU'VE GOT ACROSS FROM WHAT PARK? UH, . OH. YOU'VE GOT 10 DIFFERENT PROPERTIES THAT ARE THAT SAME SITUATION WHERE THEIR BACKYARD IS P*****K STREET. AND YOU'VE GOT A SITUATION THAT I PERSONALLY THINK LOOKS KIND OF JANKY BECAUSE YOU GOT 10 DIFFERENT PROPERTY OWNERS WITH 10 DIFFERENT FENCES AND 10 DIFFERENT CONDITIONS THAT WERE BUILT AT 10 DIFFERENT TIMES AND MAINTAINED 10 DIFFERENT WAYS. AND IT KIND OF LOOKS LIKE SO WHAT? BUT BUT UNDER, UNDER THIS, IF THOSE WERE IN, THAT MEANS THEY WOULD ONLY BE ALLOWED TO HAVE FOUR FOOT FENCES. THAT'S WHAT I SAY NOW. AND THAT'S WHY I WONDER IF IT NEEDS TO COME TO US. THAT'S AS MAJOR. AS A MAJOR SO THAT WE CAN TRY TO MITIGATE WHAT GOES ON IF ONE PERSON WANTS TO, IT'S NOT JUST FENCES, IT'S SAYING IT'S THE PRIMARY C SO ANYTHING THAT APPLIES THE PRIMARY, THAT HOUSE. I, I, YEAH. SO YOU KNOW HOW IT WOULD BE UP TO THE PROPERTY. SO ESSENTIALLY YOU'D HAVE A PRIMARY YEAH. ON, ON BOTH SIDES OF YOUR HOUSE. AND HERE'S ONE WOULD BUY THAT HOUSE. I BRING IT UP AND I I DO WE CALL IT A SECONDARY PRIVATE. WHAT DO YOU, HOW DO YOU, YOU KNOW, YOU HEAR HIM GOING, YEAH. HOW DO YOU I DON'T KNOW HOW TO FIX THE THROUGH CLASSIFY THAT, THAT THAT'S A TOUGH, AND I GET THAT THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE ACROSS THE STREET FROM THAT THING, THAT THAT SITUATION THAT COULD EASILY BECOME A MESS ARE CONCERNED. AND I GET THAT THE PROPERTY OWNER, A PRIVACY FENCE, OUR DIAGRAM CAN HELP. WE CAN ALSO EXPLAIN, YOU KNOW, UH, EXCEPT FOR LOTS THAT PASS FROM ONE STREET TO ANOTHER TO THAT, OR, OR IF YOU WERE CONCERNED ABOUT THE DECKS AND EVERYTHING ELSE, YOU COULD JUST SAY THAT THAT BACK IS ONLY FOR FENCES. IT'S ONLY FOR FOR ESTABLISHING A FOUR FOOT FENCE. BUT THEN YOU ONLY IN YOUR BACKYARD YOU HAVE A FOUR FOOT FENCE. SO ANYBODY WHO PASSES THROUGH, YOU COULD NEVER HAVE A SIX FOOT FENCE. THE HISTORICAL SOCIETY HAS THREE LOTS. THE ONE WITH THE PRIMARY BUILDING ON BROAD STREET ACTUALLY DOES CONTINUE DOWN THE DRIVEWAY. OH, IT DOES? FRONT BOTH. BUT THAT'S NOT THE PRI I MEAN, I WOULD HOPE THAT'S NOT THE PRIMARY WAY BACK THERE. IT DOES GO ALL THE WAY THROUGH TO P*****K STREET IS WHAT YOU WANTED TO SAY. AND SO THAT WOULD THEN CREATE TWO PRIMARIES FOR THAT BUILDING. JUST VERY RESTRICTED ONE [01:45:01] OR FENCES IS REALLY, I THINK WHAT THIS IS TALKING ABOUT. NOT FOR EVERYTHING ELSE. YEAH. AND I THINK THAT'S MAYBE WHERE WE GO, BUT I, I DON'T, TO ME THAT'S LIKE, IT WANTS TO BE LOOKED AT ALMOST INDIVIDUALLY. WELL, RIGHT NOW, UNLESS WE DO SOMETHING, IT IS NOT, AND IT HAPPENED AS A MINOR, AN NITROGEN CASE, AND THEY PUT A SIX FOOT IN AND THE NEIGHBORS ARE P****D, BUT IT'S THEIR BACKYARD. IT'S THEIR BACKYARD, BUT IT'S ADJACENT TO A STREET. RIGHT. THAT, THAT, BUT THAT'S, I THINK THAT'S THE REASON THE NEIGHBORS ACROSS THE STREET THAT ARE COMPLAINING BECAUSE THEY HAVE A EIGHT FOOT WALL AS IT IS, WE HAVE A SETBACK. BUT YOU ARE ALLOWED TO HAVE A SIX FOOT, BUT YOU HAVE TO HAVE A THREE FOOT SETBACK. SO THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY LANDSCAPE IN FRONT OF THAT FENCE. BUT I THINK THAT'S THE COMPROMISE THAT, AND PART OF MY THINKING HERE IS WITH SOME OF THESE ITEMS, IF WE CAN GET MORE COMMUNITY INVOLVEMENT OR WHEN, WHEN, WHEN THE PROPERTY OWNER THAT IS IN DISAGREEMENT WITH WHAT JUST HAPPENED IS MAD, YOU CAN GO, WELL THAT WASN'T, THAT CAME TO THE COMMITTEE AND YOU WERE A NOTIFIED PROPERTY OWNER THAT HAD THE RIGHT TO SPEAK AGAINST THAT. THAT'S PART ON, ON THE OTHER SIDE ON NO NOTIFICATION ON ON THAT ONE IS, UM, SO YOU SAY, OKAY, YOU, IF YOU MOVE IT BACK THREE OR FOUR FEET, THEN YOU CAN DO IT. THERE'S OF PLANTING. BUT IS THAT ANY DIFFERENT THAN TALKING ABOUT THE FENCE ON THE SIDE SAYING, WELL, YOU CAN'T PUT A FENCE ON THE SIDE BECAUSE YOU NEED TO HAVE YOUR NEIGHBORS SOME SPACE. WE'RE SAYING THAT MIGHT BE A KIND OF A PROPERTY. RIGHT. SAYING NOW WE'RE SAYING, WELL, IF YOU WANT TO PUT A FENCE, YOU HAVE TO GIVE THREE OR FOUR FEET TO, TO, TO THE STREET OR TO WELL, YOU'RE NOT ACTUALLY GIVING IT TO THEM THOUGH. WELL, THE HISTORY OF FENCE, WHEN YOU'RE OUTSIDE THE FENCE, YOU STILL, WE ALLOWED FENCE FENCES ALL CAME TO HPC, THEN WE MADE . YEAH. AND THEN SOMEBODY BUILT A BRICK FENCE AND THE NEIGHBOR WOULDN'T LET THE BRICK LAYERS ON HIS PROPERTY SO THAT ALL THE MORTAR AS FAR AS THEY COULD REACH. AND THEN WE DECIDED, WELL THAT'S NOT RIGHT. WE REALLY SHOULD GIVE NOTICE WHEN WE DO FENCES. AND THEN FOR A WHILE WE GAVE NOTICE IT WAS NOT MINOR. YEP. IT WAS. SO HOW ABOUT, HOW ABOUT THIS TO RESOLVE, UH, GIVE, MAYBE MAKE FENCES NOT MINORS, MAKE THEM COME AS MAJORS AND THEN YOU CAN, YOU CAN TALK TO THE PROPERTY OWNERS OR SEND IT TO US. HE CAN SEND IT. I THINK MATT NEEDS TO JUST KICK THAT TO US IN, IN SITUATIONS LIKE THAT. OKAY. YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU SEE SOMETHING THAT COULD POTENTIALLY BE A RED FLAG. THAT'S WHAT WE'RE HERE FOR. YEAH. IF YOU SEE SOMETHING THAT COULD POTENTIALLY BE A RED FLAG AND YOU GO, WELL, SOME NEIGHBORS SOMEWHERE MIGHT BE MAD ABOUT THIS. WELL, THAT, THAT'S WHERE WE, WELL YOU CAN FIND IT AS WELL, IT'S PEOPLE WITHIN A SECONDARY BACK STREET, BUT WE CAN WRITE RIGHT IN THERE. FENCES ON THROUGH LOTS, UH, ARE SUBJECT TO BEING ESCALATED TO. YEAH. I, I DIG IT. EXCEPT MINORS. I DON'T KNOW THAT WE EVEN NEED TO SAY THAT BECAUSE ANYTHING THAT'S THROUGHOUT ANYTHING THAT COMES AS A MINOR, HE CAN, HE CAN KICK OUT TO THE I KNOW, BUT PICTURE A 25-YEAR-OLD KID JUST TOOK MATCH JOB BECAUSE MATT RETIRED AND NOT KNOWING THAT, OKAY. SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, I DON'T LIKE WORDS THAT ARE ALWAYS ENFORCEABLE, BUT THIS IS A CLARIFIER TO ME JUST HIGHLIGHTING TO PEOPLE. 'CAUSE THIS IS VERY LIKELY TO COME UP AND HAVING, BEING MATT BEING ABLE TO POINT TO IT INSTEAD OF DEALING WITH AN ATTITUDE FROM SOMEBODY. AND NOT JUST THIS, IT COULD BE ANY KIND OF OFFENSE SITUATION. YEAH. EVEN THAT THREE FOOT WE TALKED ABOUT EARLIER. SO ONE WAY THAT WE HAD, UH, YOU WRONG AT THE TIME, ONE WAY THAT WE WERE DEALING WITH THAT WAS, UM, WHEN, UH, IT WAS WHEN WE FIRST STARTED WITH FENCES AS MINORS, BEFORE WE PUT THAT, UM, UH, WE WERE ASKING THE APPLICANTS TO PROVIDE A LETTER FROM THEIR NEIGHBOR, UH, AS TO, YOU KNOW, JUST INFORMING THEM OF THE FENCE AND, AND, AND WE GOT AN EMAIL OF THEM INFORMING THEIR NEIGHBOR. 'CAUSE WE WEREN'T GONNA WAIT FOR SOMEBODY TO RESPOND WHO MAY NEVER RESPOND. YOU DON'T WANT THAT MISSED THOUGH, DO YOU? IN THE, IN THE, UH, OR THE ONLY OTHER THING WOULD BE A NOTIF NOTIFY NOTIFICATION THAT THE NEIGHBORS MUST BE, YOU WANT TO HAVE THAT PROVIDED IN THE TEXT AS A REQUIREMENT. I MEAN, WE COULD MAKE IT A POLICY AS OPPOSED TO REQUIREMENT. SO WHAT ABOUT THIS, WHAT ABOUT IN SENATE LOOKING AT THIS FROM THE SENSE OF A, B, C? WHY NOT JUST IN THE FENCE SECTION? YEAH, THAT'S I'M STREET FACING FENCE. THAT'S IT IS SUBJECT [01:50:01] TO YEAH. I, THAT'S, THAT'S WHY MOVE FENCES. FENCES AND, AND LANDSCAPE WALLS. AND SCREENING. ALL RIGHT. . OH MY, HOLD ON. ALRIGHT. RECOGNIZES THAT BUSINESS HAVE SPECIFIC TERTIARY A VC CONDITIONS THAT WARRANT DIFFERENT CONSIDERATIONS, STEEL DOORS, EQUIPMENT INSTALLATION, ET CETERA. AND RESIDENTIAL PROPERTIES, PARTICULARLY ONES ADJACENT TO STREETS OR PUBLIC WAYS. SHOULD THERE BE TEXT AND NEW STANDARDS THAT DESCRIBE REQUIREMENTS FOR TERTIARY ABCS IN DENSE FABRIC DEVELOPMENT THAT ALLOWS FOR COMMERCIAL CONSIDERATIONS IN THEIR TERTIARY? SO DOESN'T THIS ONE TIE BACK TO THE FIRST BULLET POINT? YES. AND I AGREE. IT'S A TERTIARY, IT'S A TERTIARY. WELL THEY, THEY'LL WANT TO PUT A BIG REFRIGERATOR BACK THERE. THAT'S AN ACCESSORY STRUCTURE. SO, SO I DON'T KNOW THAT THERE'S ANYTHING UNIQUE ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING BACK THERE. A STEEL DOOR IS STILL A STEEL DOOR. WE CAN DEAL WITH DOORS. SO WHAT, WHERE, WHERE DOES THIS ISSUE COME UP DOWNTOWN? WELL, I KNOW, BUT LIKE, LIKE, UH, SPECIFIC EXAMPLE, THE BRUIN MAYBE OR, UM, POP POPPY SOMEWHERE THAT WHERE LIKE THAT EVERYBODY'S MILLING AROUND IN THAT CORRIDOR THROUGH DOWNTOWN AND YOU SEE THE BACK OF THE DIFFERENT BUILDINGS. SO WHERE WE BUILT WITH SOMETHING LIKE THIS, I THINK IT WAS, UM, I THINK IT WAS MJS RAW BAR. THEY WANTED TO PUT A WALK-IN REFRIGERATOR IN THE BACK AND SOMETHING ELSE THAT THEY HAD PUT IN. I CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS. AND WITH THE GUIDELINES AS IS, WE WERE ABLE TO SORT THROUGH IT PRETTY QUICKLY. AND I THINK THAT THERE WAS ONE JUST CAME UP RECENTLY THAT NEW, UH, RESTAURANT NEXT TO CYPRUS HALL. YEAH. MM-HMM . DIDN'T THEY, DIDN'T THEY JUST GET A NEW WALKIN REFRIGERATOR THERE AND SOME MODIFICATIONS. THEY PROPOSED THEIR WALK-IN REFRIGERATOR HAD A SCREEN. SO I SEE, I SEE THIS AS GOING BACK TO, YOU KNOW, EVERY SITUATION IS, IS UNIQUE. WE DON'T OPERATE ON PRECEDENT. YOU KNOW, WE'RE GONNA DO WHAT'S REASONABLE. UH, YOU KNOW, WITH TRIP, TRIP ALWAYS BEEN A POINT WHEN WE DID THIS, YOU KNOW, LAST TIME IS HE SAID, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T HANDLE EVERY SIM SIM YOU CAN'T HANDLE EVERY SINGLE SITUATION WITH THE GUIDELINES, CLOSING GUIDELINES. GET BACK TO THE PROBLEM THAT, THAT WE HANDLED THE 2009 GUIDELINES, WHICH IS YOU'VE GOT SO MANY THINGS TO CONSIDER UNDER ONE SECTION THAT IT ALL STARTS TO RUN GA YEAH. SO I, I'M, I'M HEARING NO TO THIS. IS THAT WHAT I'M HEARING? I DON'T, I I THINK WE, WE AS THE HPC CAN DEAL WITH THIS IN A CONTEXTUAL BASIS. YOU KNOW, YOU'RE NOT . WE WOULD PROBABLY HAVE HEARTBURN IF SOMEONE WERE TO PUT A WALK-IN METAL REFRIGERATOR OUT BEHIND, YOU KNOW, 19TH CENTURY HOUSE FOR, FOR A RESTAURANT DOWNTOWN THAT ALRIGHT. I SAID TO EVERYBODY, WE WOULD BE DONE BY FIVE. IT'S A COUPLE MINUTES. I KNOW PEOPLE HAVE TO YEAH. TIM SLOW DOWN. YEAH. IF IT WASN'T FOR TIM. SO, YEAH. SO I KNOW THAT WE'RE GONNA BE WRAPPING UP HERE IN A SECOND. WE GOT PRETTY FAR THROUGH THIS. UH, AND WHICH, WHICH IS GOOD AND MOST OF THE, OF THE LOT OF THE OTHER ONES ARE THERE. THERE'S GONNA BE SOME DISCUSSION, BUT PROBABLY NOT AS MUCH. I THINK WE WENT THROUGH, UM, A LOT OF, I WOULD LIKE TO, THIS, THIS IS A PET PEEVE FOR ME. OKAY. IF YOU COULD READ THE NEXT ONE ABOUT ATTACHED GARAGES. YEAH. YEAH. AND THE REAL QUESTION IS, IS AN UNDERNEATH DECK ON THE BACK OF A, AN ELEVATED HOUSE, A GARAGE. A GARAGE IS AN ATTACHED GARAGE WITH A WALK, YOU KNOW, A ROOF THAT ATTACHES IT. IS THAT AN ATTACHED GARAGE OR IS THAT NOT AN ATTACHED GARAGE? THIS IS PARKING THE HOUSE. YES. PARKING UNDER THE HOUSE. WELL, BEFORE YOU GET INTO THAT, SO I, WHAT I'M, I'M ASKING A QUESTION IS, SO IF WE BREAK THIS UP AND, AND I'M NOT TRYING TO CUT UP YOUR, YOUR DISCUSSION, UM, DO WE WANT TO TRY TO TAKE THE REST OF THESE UP AT NEXT WEEK'S DESIGN REVIEW? I THINK THEY CAN THINK ABOUT THIS. YEAH, THEY CAN THINK ABOUT ALL THE REST OF THESE. MOST OF THE OTHER ONES SHOULD GO. THEY'RE ASKING BE SOME DISCUSSION. BUT I, I THINK WE'VE MADE SOME REALLY GOOD DISCUSSION PROGRESS TODAY ON THE FIRST FOUR PAGES. AND I'M HOPEFUL THAT WE CAN KICK OUT THE, THE LAST TWO DESIGN REVIEW NEXT WEEK. DOES THAT WORK FOR EVERYBODY? MATT, YOU OKAY WITH THAT? SHOULD WE JUST FINISH OFF THIS PAGE? [01:55:01] UM, I, I, I, I CAN, I I'VE GOT 30, I'M COGNIZANT OF PEOPLE WHO NEED TO BE PLACES 30 AS LONG AS I LEAVE BY LIKE 10 AFTER. I'M GOOD. ALRIGHT. SO YEAH. SO WE'LL, WE'LL START WITH ACCESSORY GARAGES, ACCESSORY BUILDING AND ATTACHED GARAGES. WE USE IT FOR ATTACHED GARAGE. AND THAT'S WHAT WE SAY IS EXCLUDED BUT NOT A STANDARD. YEAH, IT'S JUST IN THE TEXT. IT'S JUST IN THE TEXT. AND SHOULD IT BE STANDARD? AND THEN WHAT DO WE MEAN BY CASH? WHAT THE QUESTION IS UNDERNEATH LIKE THE NEW BUILDING, IS THAT A, THE ONE ON FRONT STREET THERE GONNA PARK EXACTLY. IS THAT AND ONES THAT HAVE THE WALKWAYS, LIKE THE ONE ACROSS THE STREET, YOU, THERE'S A WALKWAY THAT, THAT GOES FROM THE, FROM THE PRIMARY STRUCTURE TO, TO THE GARAGE. IS THAT ATTACHED? THE ONE WE JUST APPROVED? ARE YOU SAYING A WALKWAY MAKES IT ATTACHED? I THINK THAT'S THE QUESTION. WELL, THE ROOF IS ATTACHED. YEAH. AND, AND CONSIDER THE CONDOS AT, UH, THE TRAFFIC CIRCLE GARAGES IN THE BACK. YEAH. WELL, BUT YOU KNOW, AGAIN, YOU GOTTA LOOK AT IT CONTEXTUALLY. THE REASON THE GARAGES ARE, ARE ON THE GROUND FLOOR IS USUALLY BECAUSE OF ONE SITUATION SINCE THE BUILDING. AND, AND WE CAN'T, WE CAN'T SAY NO, YOU CAN'T DO THAT BECAUSE THEN YOU JUST START GETTING IN THE ISSUE OF DENYING THEM THE ABILITY. . WE DID TELL SOMEBODY YEAH, WE DID SAY THEY COULDN'T PUT THEIR CAR UNDERNEATH. YEAH. AND THAT, WELL THAT WAS THE HOUSE BACK ON EDGERTON. EDGERTON, RIGHT? YEAH. OKAY. AND AGAIN, I THINK IT, I I WOULD ARGUE THAT IT'S KIND OF THE SAME SITUATION. I AGREE WITH WHAT ELENA IS SAYING. YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE PARKING UNDERNEATH, AND I THINK WE'VE GOT ENOUGH GUIDELINES IN HERE TO KEEP PEOPLE FROM BUILDING HOUSES STRUCTURES WITHOUT A GOOD REASON. YOU KNOW, 10 FEET UP BECOME MORE OF AN ISSUE WITH, WITH SOME OF THE NEW DOWN IN THE FLOOD AREA. WELL, SHANNON'S HOUSE, WE WOULDN'T LET THEM PUT THE GARAGE. JUST, JUST SO YOU KNOW, THE, THE WAY THE R THE REGULATIONS ARE NOW FOR THE, UM, LET WHERE THE FLOOD ZONE, UM, YOU CAN'T FIT A CAR UNDER ANY OF THE HOUSES THAT WOULD BE BUILT TO THE STANDARD THAT WE HAVE. WHICH IS THAT WE WILL NOT LET YOU BUILD IT ANY HIGHER THAN YOU MUST BUILD IT. AND THAT NO ONE CAN GET A GARAGE UNDER THERE UNLESS THEY DIG 13 FEET A PIT UNDER THEIR HOUSE, WHICH IS THEN SELF-DEFEATING I THINK MAYBE, BUT I GUESS THEY COULD DO IT. HOW TALL ARE GARAGE IS? 1313 FEET? NO. WELL, NO, NO, BUT THERE'S STRUCTURE UNDERNEATH THE, THAT THAT HAS TO BE ACCOUNTED FOR AS WELL. BUT, UM, UH, 10, MOSTLY IT'S 11 FEET. MOSTLY IT'S 11 FEET. ONCE YOU HAVE NINE, NINE FEET IS THE FLOOD LEVEL. NINE AND TWO. UH, SO THAT THE 11 FEET IS WHERE YOUR FIRST FLOOR IS AND YOU HAVE TO COUNT FOR YOUR STRUCTURE. UM, BUT THE, UH, THE GROUND IS NOT AT ZERO, THE GROUND IS AT 2, 3, 4 FEET. OH. SO THAT, YEAH. AND, AND AT THE ONE DOWN ON EAST FRONT, WHAT ARE THEY CALLING IT ANYWAY, THE ARY PROJECT? UM, THAT ONE IS IN THE TIGHT, WE TIGHT, NOT TIGHT WEAVE AND INTENSE THE DENSE FABRIC. SO, SO THIS WOULD, THIS DIDN'T APPLY TO THEM ANYWAY. YEAH. BUT BUT AGAIN, THE CONDOS THAT CIRCLE YEAH, IT'S NOT, ANYWAY, UM, I, UM, WOULD ENTERTAIN A MOTION TO ADJOURN. SECOND. SECOND. ALL IN FAVOR? AYE. THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.